Rev 20:11-15
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Father_of_five



Joined: 15 Nov 2004
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PostPosted: Thu Nov 17, 2005 7:44 pm    Post subject: Rev 20:11-15 Reply with quote

Steve,

I would be very interested in your understanding of the Great White Throne Judgment in Rev 20. If you will please answer these questions.
1. When does it take place?
2. Who is judged?
3. What is the purpose?
4. What is the outcome?
5. What is the Lake of fire/second death?
5. What other scriptures provide additional information on this event?

Thanks.

Rev 20:11-15
11Then I saw a great white throne and him who was seated on it. Earth and sky fled from his presence, and there was no place for them. 12And I saw the dead, great and small, standing before the throne, and books were opened. Another book was opened, which is the book of life. The dead were judged according to what they had done as recorded in the books. 13The sea gave up the dead that were in it, and death and Hades gave up the dead that were in them, and each person was judged according to what he had done. 14Then death and Hades were thrown into the lake of fire. The lake of fire is the second death. 15If anyone's name was not found written in the book of life, he was thrown into the lake of fire.

Todd
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STEVE7150



Joined: 19 Jun 2005
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PostPosted: Sat Nov 19, 2005 5:54 am    Post subject: Reply with quote

Hopefully Steve will answer but in the meantime.
1. After Christ second coming.
2. Unbelievers
3. Judgement
4. Traditional Christianity believes in eternal punishment some others including myself believe in chastisement or corrective discipline where the punishment fits the crime.
5. Final death for unrepentant sinners.
6. A lot and it depends on your perspective. A couple that come to mind are Matt 5.25 "You will not get out of that place until you pay the last cent" and the verse about "some will be beaten with few lashes and some with many lashes."
BTW the books being opened are assummed to be books of people's works but they may not be ,the books may be the OT and NT being read to unbelievers or the gospels.
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STEVE7150



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PostPosted: Sun Nov 20, 2005 7:54 am    Post subject: Reply with quote

Actually upon further reflection i think the second death is not merely the lake of fire. The second death is the first death and hell cast into the Lake of Fire. Death itself is cast into the LOF,and hell or really hades is cast into the LOF which should end death and hell and THEN AFTERWARDS unbelievers are tossed into the LOF AFTER death is destroyed.
So if God's kingdom shall be ALL in ALL then sin is burned up in the LOF also.
So the second death is actually THE DEATH OF DEATH IMHO.
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Father_of_five



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PostPosted: Mon Nov 21, 2005 7:22 am    Post subject: Reply with quote

STEVE7150 wrote:
Actually upon further reflection i think the second death is not merely the lake of fire. The second death is the first death and hell cast into the Lake of Fire. Death itself is cast into the LOF,and hell or really hades is cast into the LOF which should end death and hell and THEN AFTERWARDS unbelievers are tossed into the LOF AFTER death is destroyed.
So if God's kingdom shall be ALL in ALL then sin is burned up in the LOF also.
So the second death is actually THE DEATH OF DEATH IMHO.


I would agree with you that when death is cast into the LOF is equivalent to saying "the last enemy that shall be destroyed is death" (1 Cor 15:26). I believe this will occur when the last person has been resurrected to life.

Todd


Last edited by Father_of_five on Wed Jan 04, 2006 2:25 pm; edited 1 time in total
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Father_of_five



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PostPosted: Mon Nov 21, 2005 7:50 am    Post subject: Reply with quote

Here is one of my questions.

2 Cor 5:10
For we must all appear before the judgment seat of Christ; that every one may receive the things done in his body, according to that he hath done, whether it be good or bad.

If this statement is parallel to the Great White Throne Judgment in Rev 20 then it seems that both believers and others will be judged on the same basis. How does this fit into the scheme of things? Why are believers judged with non-believers?

1 Pet 4:17
For the time is come that judgment must begin at the house of God: and if it first begin at us, what shall the end be of them that obey not the gospel of God?

Is this referring to the same thing? If so, it says that this time has already come, rather than an event at the end of the age. Any thoughts?

Todd
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STEVE7150



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PostPosted: Mon Nov 21, 2005 8:06 am    Post subject: Reply with quote

Hi Todd, That was me, i keep forgetting to log on when i use a different computer. Steve7150
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Father_of_five



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PostPosted: Mon Nov 21, 2005 7:33 pm    Post subject: Reply with quote

Anonymous wrote:
Hi Todd, I'm on my way out but just a quick response for now. I believe the Great White Throne judgement is only for unbelievers to be judged after they are raised but believers are judged when they die and their spirit taken to heaven. At least that's how i understand it. We do all appear before the judgement seat of Christ but at different times IMHO.


Steve, the "sea" which also "gives up the dead that are in it" represents the church I believe. See Rev 15:1-3. It appears as though the church is represented at the White Throne Judgment also.

Todd
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STEVE7150



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PostPosted: Mon Nov 21, 2005 7:52 pm    Post subject: Reply with quote

Todd, My understanding is that the "sea of glass" is in heaven before the throne of God. The sea of the earth is different and seems to represent the nature of the world. Restlessness,mysterious,uncertainty,darkness and ominous describes the sea of the earth which i think is a metaphor for the world or the things in it.
Did'nt Paul say "Don't you know Saints that you will judge the world." This would mean the saints were already judged would'nt it?
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Steve



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PostPosted: Wed Nov 23, 2005 7:06 pm    Post subject: Reply with quote

Since the original questions were addressed to me, I thought I would weigh-in.

I believe there will be one judgment, at the coming of Christ, in which He will judge the living and the dead (2 Tim.4:1). He will raise all the dead—saved and lost (John 5:28-29/ Acts 24:15), and will call them all before Him together (Matt.25:31ff). All will be judged and rewarded according to their works (Matt.16:27/Rom.2:5-10/1 Pet.1:17/ Rev.20:12-13).

In light of this, here is how I would answer your original questions:

1. When does it take place?
A. At the second coming.

2. Who is judged?
A. Everyone who has ever lived.

3. What is the purpose?
A. To vindicate God's verdict, and to show (by examining works) who had a justifying faith.

4. What is the outcome?
A. Lake of fire for the lost; Paradise of God for the saved.

5. What is the Lake of fire/second death?
A. Don't know, exactly. Have to wait and see.

6. What other scriptures provide additional information on this event?
A. See paragraph above.
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Father_of_five



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PostPosted: Thu Nov 24, 2005 9:06 am    Post subject: Reply with quote

Steve,

Thank you for taking the time to answer my questions. I do have an additional question for you on this. You said......

Steve wrote:
3. What is the purpose?
A. To vindicate God's verdict, and to show (by examining works) who had a justifying faith.


Do Christians go to be with Christ immediately upon death? Paul said,....

Phil 1:22-24
22If I am to go on living in the body, this will mean fruitful labor for me. Yet what shall I choose? I do not know! 23I am torn between the two: I desire to depart and be with Christ, which is better by far; 24but it is more necessary for you that I remain in the body.

If Christians go to be with Christ immediately upon death - and nonbelievers do not - then isn't it already determined who had justifying faith? Therefore, the judgment when Christ returns must be for something else???? This is where I am unsure.

Todd
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STEVE7150



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PostPosted: Thu Nov 24, 2005 9:22 am    Post subject: Reply with quote

Hi Steve, As Todd mentioned if i have understood you correctly have'nt you said you now believe in conditional mortality and that believers spirits go to be with the Lord immediately upon their death? If so are'nt they judged before his second coming?
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Steve



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PostPosted: Thu Nov 24, 2005 11:04 am    Post subject: Reply with quote

I do believe in the believer's immediate entry into heaven at death, but I also see the scriptures teaching a general resurrection and judgment of the saved and the lost at the second coming.

This scenario does not necessarily mean that the believer's judgment occurs at death. The judgment that determines who belongs in heaven occurs, I think, at conversion. When the sinner comes to the cross of Christ and obtains mercy, he is regenerated and comes to be "in Christ". The judgment of Christ on the cross becomes that sinner's own judgment, and the resurrection of Christ becomes the sinner's own regeneration.

So long as he abides in Christ, his destiny is assured, and no separate appraisal needs to occur at the moment of death to determine whether or not his life will continue in heaven. In fact, he is already there, in Christ (Eph.2:6). Already, "you died, and your life is hid with Christ in God" (Col.3:3). "Our citizenship is in heaven" (Phil.3:21) even while we are domiciled on this planet in these bodies. Physical death simply transports us home from our mission abroad.

The judgment at the end of all time includes the assessment and rewarding of the believer's works, as well as the assessment and punishment of the sinner's works. The sinner's judgment will demonstrate that his works were not those tyhat proceed from faith in Christ and that they were, thus, not believers. The believer's judgment will justify the relative nature of the rewards that God gives to each one—"you have been faithful with ten pounds—have authority over ten cities!" (Luke 19:17).

At least this is how I have come to understand these matters. It may turn out differently, if I am mistaken.
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Father_of_five



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PostPosted: Fri Nov 25, 2005 11:23 am    Post subject: Reply with quote

Deleted because it was off-topic somewhat.

Last edited by Father_of_five on Wed Jan 04, 2006 2:38 pm; edited 1 time in total
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Roger



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PostPosted: Fri Dec 09, 2005 6:19 am    Post subject: Reply with quote

I appreciate the discussion on this matter and would like to comment on it in the near future. At this point I would just like to broaden the scope of the discussion by adding some verses in Daniel chapter 7 to this discussion.

Dan.7:9-10 "I kept looking until thrones were set up, and the Ancient of Days took His seat; His vesture was like white snow, and the hair of His head like pure wool. His vesture was like white snow, and the hair of His head like pure wool. His throne was ablaze with flames, its wheels were a burning fire. A river of fire was flowing and coming out from before Him; thousands upon thousands were attending Him, and myriads upon myriads were standing before Him: The court sat, and the books were opened."

Dan.7:13-14 "I kept looking in the night visions, and behold, with the clouds of heaven one like a Son of Man was coming, and he came up to the Ancient of Days and was presented before Him. And to Him was given dominion, glory and a kingdom, that all the peoples, nations, and men of every language might serve Him. His dominion is an everlasting dominion which will not pass away: and His kingdom is one which will not be destroyed." (New American Standard Bible)
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Paidion



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PostPosted: Fri Dec 09, 2005 7:52 am    Post subject: Reply with quote

Quote:
I believe the Great White Throne judgement is only for unbelievers to be judged after they are raised


If that is the case, Steve (not Gregg), then why is it specified that among those raised at the Great White Throne Judgment, "those whose names were not written in the Lamb's book of life, were cast into the Lake of Fire"? Doesn't that stament imply, at least implicitly, that some of them did have their names written in the Lamb's book of life?
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