Rev 7:14 "The great tribulation"

 
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Father_of_five



Joined: 15 Nov 2004
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PostPosted: Tue Sep 06, 2005 7:51 am    Post subject: Rev 7:14 "The great tribulation" Reply with quote

Steve,

Have you considered (or heard of) the great tribulation as being the "Day of judgment and perdition of ungodly men" spoken of by Peter (2 Pet 3:7) and Paul (Rom 2:5-6) and Jude (Jude 14-15). If so, then this would support the view of Christian Universalists that the punishment of Hell is remedial and consequently limited and leads to the ultimate salvation of the whole of mankind (the restitution of all things).

Todd
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Steve



Joined: 17 Feb 2004
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PostPosted: Tue Sep 06, 2005 9:44 am    Post subject: Reply with quote

Hi Todd,

I had never heard that suggestion before. Much as I would like to believe in Universalism, and would be glad to have proof texts in its favor, I don't think it is likely that this is what "the great tribulation" means in Revelation 7:14.

It seems to me that, by including the article "the" before "great tribulation," there is an intended reference to a previously-mentioned and thus already familiar "great tribulation." The same expression is found earlier, in the Olivet Discourse (Matt.24:21), and I am inclined to see the use of the same term in Revelation as a reference back to Jesus' prediction there.

The expression "great tribulation," in Matthew 24, has its parallel in Luke 21:23 in the phrase, "distress in the land [Israel] and wrath upon this people [the Jews]." Since this is connected with Jerusalem being trodden underfoot by the Gentiles (Luke 21:24), I see it as a reference to the time of affliction that came upon the Jewish people as a consequence of the invasion and destruction of Jerusalem in AD 70.

It may be that Revelation 7:14 is not alluding to Matthew 24:21, but the latter is the only previous mention of a "great tribulation" in scripture, and so it strikes me as the logical antecedent to the comment in Revelation.
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Steve
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Father_of_five



Joined: 15 Nov 2004
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Location: Texas USA

PostPosted: Tue Sep 06, 2005 10:11 am    Post subject: Reply with quote

Steve wrote:
....I see it as a reference to the time of affliction that came upon the Jewish people as a consequence of the invasion and destruction of Jerusalem in AD 70.


Thanks, Steve for your reply.

I certainly see where one can make this connection as you describe, but if you look at Rev 7:9 it says that these are "...a great multitude that no one could count, from every nation, tribe, people and language..."

It is hard for me to equate this to a limited number of Jews who were afflicted during the destruction of Jerusalem.

Todd
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Steve



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PostPosted: Tue Sep 06, 2005 11:12 am    Post subject: Reply with quote

I think you're right. This has led me to believe that the "great tribulation" may refer to the entire period from the destruction of Jerusalem to the end of the "times of the Gentiles" (Luke 21:24). The Jews have experienced trouble and persecution all over the world during this age, and an innumerable company of Gentiles have been converted, died and gone to heaven during the same time.

I think the two classes of people seen in Revelation 7 represent the saved remnant of the Jews (the 144,000—vv.1-8) and also the numberless Gentiles (the incalculable multitude—vv.9-17) who are being saved since the destruction of the Jewish commonwealth.

There may be better ways of identifying these symbols, but this is my take on them.
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Steve
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Father_of_five



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PostPosted: Tue Sep 06, 2005 11:54 am    Post subject: Reply with quote

Steve, one last question which may be related to this subject.

In Rev 5:13 it says,...

13 Then I heard every creature in heaven and on earth and under the earth and on the sea, and all that is in them, singing: "To him who sits on the throne and to the Lamb be praise and honor and glory and power, for ever and ever!"

I was seeing this as parallel to Rev 7:9-12. Do you see it this way also? If so, it seems to be describing all of creation singing praises to God and the Lamb. Would this not support Universalism?

Todd
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Father_of_five



Joined: 15 Nov 2004
Posts: 213
Location: Texas USA

PostPosted: Wed Sep 21, 2005 10:23 am    Post subject: Reply with quote

Steve,

Below is your quote from another thread. It seems to me that maybe you may be willing to consider that the 144,000 might be referring to the Church. Very Happy

Todd

Steve wrote:
In the New Testament epistles, the terms "Israel" and "Jew" are sometimes broadened to include Gentiles (non-Hebrews) who believe in the Jewish Messiah (Jesus), and is narrowed to exclude the Hebrews who reject the Messiah. As a result, the only valid Israelites or Jews that are significant in the special dealings of God are believers in Christ, whether Hebrew or Gentile by national origin (Rom.2:28-29/Gal.3:7-9, 16, 29). In other words, the true Israel is the body of Christian believers, also called the Church.
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