What if they knew what we knew?
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brody_in_ga



Joined: 23 Dec 2005
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PostPosted: Sun Mar 09, 2008 4:54 pm    Post subject: What if they knew what we knew? Reply with quote

So I have been suffering with a toothache for the last few weeks, and my dentist appointment isn't until April 9th.(Pray for me) I have had a lot of time to sit around and think up interesting scenarios.

What if the church that was alive during the Apostles day had a vision of what the church was like today, and some of its theological wars. I call them "wars", because theology is more than just a discussion these days, it divides churches and sometimes destroys relationships.

So here is a list of questions I came up with to give to Peter and Paul. Feel free to add yours.

Dear Peter and Paul,
Salvation issues:
1.) At what point is a man justified and forgiven of his sins? Does this take place at belief in the gospel? After baptism? Before Baptism? What would you consider essential to the faith and a definite for the Christian to believe in order to be Christian? Expound more upon the subject of predestination.

End times:
2.) What can the church expect just before the return of the Lord? Please explain the catching up of the saints at the end of this current age.

Doctrinal issues:
3.) Explain the Deity of Christ in relation to the Godhead. How should we understand the Godhead? What writings should the Christian church except other than the completed canon? Explain when the gifts will cease, and will this happen before the return of Jesus? What did you mean when you in wrote 1 Tim 2 "Never the less, she shall be saved in childbearing"...

Peter, what did you mean when you wrote "Christ preached to the spirits in prison"?

Now add yours.

Finally, who wrote the book of Hebrews?
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Paidion



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PostPosted: Mon Mar 10, 2008 5:11 am    Post subject: Reply with quote

Paul, what is meant by "they who baptize for the sake of the dead."

Actually, Paul did deal with some theological "problems". He said those who taught that the resurrection is past already had "swerved from the truth" and were "upsetting the faith of some."

Yet, today the teachings of Hymenaeus and Philetus are widely accepted. The idea is that when Jesus rose he loosed the righteous who were in the chains of Hades and took them straight to heaven (the interpretation of "led captivity captive". So from then on people go straight to heaven at death, and that is the personal resurrection of each "saved" human being when he dies.

I've often heard preachers at funerals quote the resurrrection chapter (I Corninthians 15) and then apply Paul's words concerning the resurrection to the dead "passing through a door" into the presence of God.

Justin Martyr (2nd century) in his dialogue with Trypho said, "If you have heard that there are some among us who say that there is no resurrection and that their souls, when they die, are taken to heaven, do not imagine that they are Christians.
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brody_in_ga



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PostPosted: Mon Mar 10, 2008 7:58 am    Post subject: Reply with quote

Quote:
So from then on people go straight to heaven at death, and that is the personal resurrection of each "saved" human being when he dies.



Hello Pai,

If I understand you correctly, you are saying that you do not believe that a believer goes to heaven immediately when he dies, rather he merely "sleeps" until the resurrection, am I right? I also noticed that you put the word "saved" in parenthesis, I am assuming form this that you have a problem with this terminology...?

First, I believe that a Christian goes to be with Jesus at the time of his death. There are several scriptures that seem to teach this. Also, how could Moses and Elijah appear and talk with Jesus, if they were in an un-conscience state?? Would you consider me lost because I believe such? It seems Justin would...

On the last point, why would you have a problem with a Christian saying "I am saved", assuming you do..? Scripture uses this language in several places.
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mattrose



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PostPosted: Mon Mar 10, 2008 8:00 am    Post subject: Reply with quote

The consciousness of spirit/soul (I use the "/" b/c of the popular usage of the word soul) after death, true or not, is a completely and totally different issue than 'resurrection.' Most people from all worldviews believe in some type of life after death (for the spirit), but Christianity posits that there will be life AFTER 'life after death.' The resurrection is not an alternative, it's 'in addition to.' A Christian may believe in 'soul sleep' or 'consciousness' upon bodily death. We disagree about such things. But Christianity is marked by it's belief in a future resurrection.
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brody_in_ga



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PostPosted: Mon Mar 10, 2008 3:39 pm    Post subject: Reply with quote

mattrose wrote:
The consciousness of spirit/soul (I use the "/" b/c of the popular usage of the word soul) after death, true or not, is a completely and totally different issue than 'resurrection.' Most people from all worldviews believe in some type of life after death (for the spirit), but Christianity posits that there will be life AFTER 'life after death.' The resurrection is not an alternative, it's 'in addition to.' A Christian may believe in 'soul sleep' or 'consciousness' upon bodily death. We disagree about such things. But Christianity is marked by it's belief in a future resurrection.


I agree Matt. I personally believe that all Christians go to be with Jesus just after death, and receive glorified bodies at the resurrection. I don't have all the answers on this subject, or any other for that matter, but it seems to be the most consistent view to me.
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Paidion



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PostPosted: Tue Mar 11, 2008 7:28 am    Post subject: Reply with quote

Brody wrote:
If I understand you correctly, you are saying that you do not believe that a believer goes to heaven immediately when he dies, rather he merely "sleeps" until the resurrection, am I right?


Not quite. I don't believe he "sleeps". I believe he's dead.

But you are right in saying that I don't believe he goes to heaven immediately at death. Nor do I believe he is conscious in any way before or that he even "exists" (Laughing Don't make too much of those quotation marks) before he is raised to life again..

Quote:
I also noticed that you put the word "saved" in parenthesis, I am assuming form this that you have a problem with this terminology...?


I have no problem with the terminology. What I have a problem with is the way it is used. Many evangelicals and fundamentalists use the word to mean that they have been saved from hell. But the apostles used in the sense of being saved from sin. So if I use "saved" in the way the apostles used it, many do not understand. So when I used the word with quotation marks in my previous post, I was using it the way most modern evangelicals and fundamentalists us it. If I had meant it in the apostolic sense, I would not have used quotation marks.

In the apostolic sense , we are being saved from sin. The process is not yet complete. Here is one example of salvation as a process:

1 Corinthians 1:18 For the word of the cross is folly to those who are perishing, but to us who are being saved it is the power of God.

I am aware, of course, that Paul states "by grace you have been saved through faith" which appears to be a completed fact.

That does not necessarily mean that Paul thought of salvation of an individual as a completed fact rather than a process. The writer of Hebrews (who might have been Paul) also said "all things have been put under his feet", and a couple of lines later "But we do not yet see all things under his feet". When God decides to do a thing, nothing can stop him, and so it's as good as done now. So we might as well say "All things have been put under his feet" even though it is not a present reality. The same with being saved. I see Paul's "you have been saved" (Ephesians) in the same way. "He who began a good work in you will continue to perfect it until the day of Christ." So even though we will not be completely saved from sin until Christ puts the finishing touches on our salvation at his return, if we are moving in that direction by the enabling grace of God, we can confidently say "I have been saved (from sin)" --- in the expectation that the process will be completed.

Quote:
First, I believe that a Christian goes to be with Jesus at the time of his death. There are several scriptures that seem to teach this.


I don't think there are any. There are several which have been interpreted that way by those who already have that bias when they read them.

Quote:
Also, how could Moses and Elijah appear and talk with Jesus, if they were in an un-conscience state??


They didn't. That was a vision which the apostles had. Jesus himself called it a "vision":

And as they were coming down the mountain, Jesus commanded them, "Tell no one the vision, until the Son of man is raised from the dead." Matthew 17:9

Quote:
Would you consider me lost because I believe such? It seems Justin would...


No, I wouldn't consider you lost or a non-Christian because you believe that you will go to heaven at death. I think Justin Martyr was referring to the gnostics in his day who denied the resurrection and believed that their souls were taken to heaven when they died. I think Justin was right about the gnostics. They were not true Christians. Though the gnostics have had a strong influence on Christendom throughout the ages, the fact that Christians have accepted some of their teachings as true, does not make them non-Christians.

Quote:
On the last point, why would you have a problem with a Christian saying "I am saved", assuming you do..? Scripture uses this language in several places.


Hopefully, I have already answered this question. If not, please say so, and I will try to be even more specific.
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Steve



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PostPosted: Tue Mar 11, 2008 12:41 pm    Post subject: Reply with quote

Those who believe in the redeemed soul's consciousness after death often use Paul's dichotomy "absent from the body/ present with the Lord" (2 Cor.5:6, 8/ Phil.1:22-24) as a referent. I am among those who do so. I know that "present with the Lord" does not, in itself, clearly specify a conscious state. It does, however, suggest that whoever or whatever is referred to as "we" is an identifiable entity that can be present or absent in various places. If "I" am absent from my body, then "I" must be something distinct from my body, which currently lives in the body. At death, "I" no longer dwell in this earthen vessel, but "I" am then present with the Lord. What is this "I" that is transported at death to heaven, where the Lord is?

I think that Jesus' promise that "whosoever lives and believes in me shall never die" (John 11:26) supplies a strong basis for me to believe that "I" will never die—I will simply relocate (I am aware of an alternative interpretation of John 11:26, but I consider it to be less likely).

In a more tenuous case, I consider that when John saw "the [apparently disembodied] souls of them who had been beheaded" in heaven with Christ, prior to the resurrection (Rev.6:9ff/ 20:4-6)—if the vision even slightly corresponded with literal reality—he saw that those who had died in Christ were still alive and vindicated in heaven. If the vision does not correspond with the actual case of Christians who have died, then at least the Holy Spirit did not mind using images that could easily convey that impression.

Having said that, I have no preference for either doctrine. Whether we are unconscious until the resurrection or we are immediately conscious in the presence of Christ does not, to me, seem consequential—except to the question of how the relevant scriptures should be interpreted.
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Paidion



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PostPosted: Tue Mar 11, 2008 5:42 pm    Post subject: Reply with quote

Steve wrote:
Those who believe in the redeemed soul's consciousness after death often use Paul's dichotomy "absent from the body/ present with the Lord" (2 Cor.5:6, 8/ Phil.1:22-24) as a referent. I am among those who do so. I know that "present with the Lord" does not, in itself, clearly specify a conscious state. It does, however, suggest that whoever or whatever is referred to as "we" is an identifiable entity that can be present or absent in various places. If "I" am absent from my body, then "I" must be something distinct from my body, which currently lives in the body. At death, "I" no longer dwell in this earthen vessel, but "I" am then present with the Lord. What is this "I" that is transported at death to heaven, where the Lord is?


As I see it, neither in 2 Cor.5:6, 8 nor in Phil.1:22-24 is Paul referring to the intermediate state; rather Paul is speaking of the resurrection. This fact seems obvious when we consider the context of 2 Cor.5:6, 8. Let's examine the first three verses:

1 For we know that if the earthly tent we live in is destroyed, we have a building from God, a house not made with hands, eternal in the heavens.
2 Here indeed we groan, and long to put on our heavenly dwelling,
3 so that by putting it on we may not be found naked.


If Paul had been speaking of our disembodied spirit being present with the Lord at death, then surely he would not have called this "a building from God" and "a house not made with hands". Also he says that by putting on this dwelling we may not be found naked. (disembodied?)

Rather Paul thinks of our physical body as "an earthly tent we live in". If that physical body is destroyed, God has a permanent house in the heavens for us to live in --- namely, the resurrection body. This idea seems to be the same as that which Paul expressed in "the resurrection chapter":

Quote:
What is sown is perishable, what is raised is imperishable.
I Cor 15:42


4 For while we are still in this tent, we sigh with anxiety; not that we would be unclothed, but that we would be further clothed, so that what is mortal may be swallowed up by life.

Here Paul seems to say that we will not be "unclothed" and come into the presence of God as a disembodied spirit. Rather, we will be "clothed" with the resurrection body.

5 He who has prepared us for this very thing is God, who has given us the Spirit as a guarantee.
6 So we are always of good courage; we know that while we are at home in the body we are away from the Lord


While we are at home (in this present body), we are away from the Lord.

7 for we walk by faith, not by sight.
8 We are of good courage, and we would rather be away from the body and at home with the Lord


We would rather be absent from this present mortal body, and be present with the Lord (in that future immortal body). I think that is what Paul is trying to tell his readers.

Quote:
I think that Jesus' promise that "whosoever lives and believes in me shall never die" (John 11:26) supplies a strong basis for me to believe that "I" will never die—I will simply relocate (I am aware of an alternative interpretation of John 11:26, but I consider it to be less likely).


I know it's often translated as "shall never die", but if that is a correct translation, then it contradicts the first part of Jesus' sentence in which he says:

"I am the resurrection and the life; he who believes in me, though he die, yet shall he live."

Here Jesus clearly speaks of those who believe in him and who also die.
Or is he using the word "die" in a different sense in the second clause? That seem unlikely.. The Greek literally reads as follows:

And everyone who lives and believes in me may no way be dying into the age.

The second verb is an aorist subjunctive and not a future.

I see two possiblities. If we take it really literally, he may mean that those living who believe in him will not continue in death right into the next age after he returns, but will be raised to life at his return.
Or, if we consider "into the age" as meaning "permanently", then he may mean that the living ones who believe in him shall not remain dead permanently, but will be raised to life.

Quote:
In a more tenuous case, I consider that when John saw "the [apparently disembodied] souls of them who had been beheaded" in heaven with Christ, prior to the resurrection (Rev.6:9ff/ 20:4-6)—if the vision even slightly corresponded with literal reality—he saw that those who had died in Christ were still alive and vindicated in heaven. If the vision does not correspond with the actual case of Christians who have died, then at least the Holy Spirit did not mind using images that could easily convey that impression.


It seems pretty figurative --- a bit like the voice of Abel's blood crying out to God from the ground.

Quote:
Having said that, I have no preference for either doctrine. Whether we are unconscious until the resurrection or we are immediately conscious in the presence of Christ does not, to me, seem consequential—except to the question of how the relevant scriptures should be interpreted.


It is certainly of no consequence for the individual believer. For the next thing of which he will be aware after death is being in the presence of the Lord regardless of which of the two is true.

That being the case, one can see how Paul's statement in Philippians 1:2 can fit either understanding:

My desire is to depart and be with Christ, for that is far better.

Notwithstanding, whichever of the two is true seems to have considerable import to living people who have lost loves ones and who would like to think of them living in peace and joy with the Lord.
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TK



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PostPosted: Wed Mar 12, 2008 3:48 am    Post subject: Reply with quote

Paidion- a couple of quick points-

if our spirit is "regenerated" when we are born again (i take this to mean "made alive") then what happens to the Spirit when our flesh dies? Does it die also, until the resurrection? is it simply in a "holding pattern?" Or do you not believe that our spirit is separate from our flesh?

TK
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TK



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PostPosted: Wed Mar 12, 2008 6:45 am    Post subject: Reply with quote

in regards to Paul's thorn, note:

Quote:
But if you do not drive out the inhabitants of the land from before you, then it shall be that those whom you let remain shall be irritants in your eyes and thorns in your sides, and they shall harass you in the land where you dwell. Numb. 33:55

know for certain that the LORD your God will no longer drive out these nations from before you. But they shall be snares and traps to you, and scourges on your sides and thorns in your eyes, until you perish from this good land which the LORD your God has given you. Josh. 23:13

Therefore I also said, ‘I will not drive them out before you; but they shall be thorns in your side,[a] and their gods shall be a snare to you.’” Judges 2:3


don't these suggest that Paul's thorn was a person(s)?

TK
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Paidion



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PostPosted: Wed Mar 12, 2008 9:03 am    Post subject: Reply with quote

MillerShull wrote:
If our souls do not go immediately to heaven when our bodies die, what did Jesus mean when He said to the thief on the cross, "Assuredly, I say to you, today you will be with Me in Paradise." (Luke 23:43)


In Hellenistic Greek, the language in which the New Testament was written (with the possible exception of Matthew), there were no punctuation marks of any kind. Indeed, the words were all in upper case letters, with no spaces between.

I noticed that a comma was placed before "today" in the translation from which you quoted. Perhaps Jesus' meaning would come out correctly if we placed that comma after "today".

Truly I am telling you today, you will be with me in paradise.

Sometimes we use a similar expression even in our day:
"I'm telling you right now, there's going to be trouble if you do that."

TK wrote:
Paidion- a couple of quick points-

if our spirit is "regenerated" when we are born again (i take this to mean "made alive") then what happens to the Spirit when our flesh dies? Does it die also, until the resurrection? is it simply in a "holding pattern?" Or do you not believe that our spirit is separate from our flesh?


I believe each of us exists as a complete entity.

In the account of creation, God created a human body from earth. He breathed into that body the breath of life (spirit), and man became a living being (soul, if you wish).

We read in Ecclesiastes 12:7 that when we die

the dust returns to the earth as it was, and the spirit returns to God who gave it.

As I see it, this means that that life or spirit of life by which God made man alive, departs again to God, while the body changes back to earth and remains here. The spirit is not the conscious part of us, but the life which God imparted when he created man. In the OT, "soul" simply meant "being". We read in Genesis of "the soul of beasts". We also read that through Moses one was not to "touch a dead soul", that is a dead human being.

Later both "spirit" and "soul" were used in reference to the conscious aspect of the human being. However, just because we can describe those aspects with the words "spirit" and "soul" does not necessitate our believing that the human being is a trichotomy. Paul writes as if the body is our "clothing" or "house" and that we somehow need somthing in which to live. I am not sure whether Paul was saying this in a figurative sense or whether he actually believed that there is an "I" which is somehow dichotomous with respect to the body.

To sum up my own beliefs in answer to your questions:

1. Our whole being (not just something called our "spirit")has been regenerated.

2. When we die our spirit (that is the spirit of life which we have because we are descended from Adam to whom it was given) goes back to the God that gave it. That spirit is not the personal consciousness. It is simply life.

3. I'm not sure about the "holding pattern". I think you are suggesting some the possibility of some kind of continuity of our personality so that the same person will be resurrected. I don't think that such a pattern is necessary in order for God to raise the same person. He who originally created persons, and gave them the ability to generate other persons, is well able to raise to life the same person who once lived, even if that person no longer exists in any sense prior to that act.
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mattrose



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PostPosted: Wed Mar 12, 2008 10:13 am    Post subject: Reply with quote

That our spirit, not having consciousness, goes back to be with God is a somewhat difficult concept to make sense of. I was, however, talking to a friend of mine the other day that believes something similar. He said our spirit/life goes to God. In God's MEMORY we are kept alive, though unconsciously. But he said God's memory is so vibrant, that one can almost experience some level of consciousness when necessary, thus explaining post death appearances of Samuel, Moses & Elijah.
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TK



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PostPosted: Wed Mar 12, 2008 11:36 am    Post subject: Reply with quote

Paidion wrote:

Quote:
I believe each of us exists as a complete entity.


I have been reading a three volume book by Watchman Nee entitled "The Spiritual Man." He goes to great lengths to explain the practical aspects of the trichotomy. If you are right, he wasted a lot of time writing that book. The problem is, it seems to make so much sense.

TK
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PostPosted: Wed Mar 12, 2008 2:32 pm    Post subject: Reply with quote

I don't find the trichotomist position persuasive. I think the monist & dichotomist positions both fit better with the biblical record. But that's just my opinion.
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Paidion



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PostPosted: Wed Mar 12, 2008 2:58 pm    Post subject: Reply with quote

Zoe wrote:
Maybe you could expound your understanding of Rev. 20:4-6?


This passage, like so much of Revelation, describes what the apostle John saw in his vision. What he saw in his vision was symbolic of some reality. For example, he was a vision of the New Jerusalem which he described in great detail. It was four-square, had twelve gates inscribed with the names of the twelve tribes of Israel, and twelve foundations inscribed inscribed with the names of the twelve apostles. There was a river flowing through the city whose source was the throne of God and the Lamb. The tree of life was on each side of the river with leaves for the healing of the nations. There is much more, but what does it all mean?

Before the vision was shown to John, an angel announced to him, ""Come, I will show you the Bride, the wife of the Lamb." Rev 21:9.
The City that John saw represented the Bride of Christ!

Now, I will attempt to explain the verses you mentioned:

4 Then I saw thrones, and seated on them were those to whom judgment was committed. Also I saw the souls of those who had been beheaded for their testimony to Jesus and for the word of God, and who had not worshiped the beast or its image and had not received its mark on their foreheads or their hands. They came to life, and reigned with Christ a thousand years.

No one can literally see "souls" unless "human beings" are meant. But living human beings cannot be meant here, for these people had died.
So John sees a vision of their "souls", which seems to be a kind of pre-view of the resurrection of these persons who had been slain for their testiimony. In his vision, these people "came to life" (or "lived") and reigned with Christ a thousand years. My belief, (being pre-millenial) is that when Christ returns he will actually set up an earthly rule for a thousand years, and the "overcomers" whom John mentions, will reign and rule with him.

5 The rest of the dead did not come to life until the thousand years were ended. This is the first resurrection.

The "rest of the dead" are those who are not privileged to share in the first resurrection. They will be raised to life after the thousand years. Perhaps most of them will need to be corrected in the Lake of Fire. But it would seem that some of them will not. For we read:

Revelation 20:15 and if any one’s name was not found written in the book of life, he was thrown into the lake of fire.

This seems to imply that some of their names were written in the book of life.

6 Blessed and holy is he who shares in the first resurrection! Over such the second death has no power, but they shall be priests of God and of Christ, and they shall reign with him a thousand years.

The overcomers, the blessed and holy ones who share in the first resurrection will not be subject to the second death (defined as "the Lake of Fire" in Rev 20:14). In other words, they will not require correction in the Lake of Fire. They are the ones who will reign with Christ for the thousand-year period (which is called "the Millenium").
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