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PAULESPINO



Joined: 18 Jul 2006
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PostPosted: Tue Feb 12, 2008 11:06 pm    Post subject: ALL!!!!!!!!!!!!!!! Reply with quote

Romans 3:9
What then? Are we better than they? Not at all. For we have previously charged both Jews and Greeks that they are all under sin.


When we use the word ( ALL) in a sentence this word must be referring to someone or something. The question is what or who is it referring to.
In order to know the reference of the word ALL we must not only read the sentence from which the word ALL was mentioned but also the sentences before and after. In Romans Chapter 3 Paul was addressing the people ( humans), the question is which group of humans Paul was referring to. Paul was referring to the Jews and greeks but we can further categorize which group of jews and greeks he was referring to. Paul was referring to people who are capable of making right and wrong decisons. Paul is not referring to babies because babies are not capable of making decision.

Therefore Paul is saying that ALL have sinned except babies

By the way the word sin can be use as a noun, verb, adverb or adjective.

The bottomline is that the word SIN is a process. In order to fulfill the process of sin a person must act on it either mentally or physically.

Babies are not capable of fulfilling the process of SIN and therefore guiltless and innocent.
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Paidion



Joined: 25 Jul 2005
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PostPosted: Sat May 31, 2008 5:47 pm    Post subject: Reply with quote

How do you define "baby"? Is your answer found in scripture?

When does a person cease being a "baby"? Do you have scriptural evidence for your answer?

Quote:
Paul is not referring to babies because babies are not capable of making decision.


The severely mentally retarded also seem incapable of making rational decisions. Would you say that they have therefore never sinned? If one of them kills someone, would that, in his or her case, be a non-sin?
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Thomas



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PostPosted: Mon Jun 02, 2008 1:38 am    Post subject: Reply with quote

Hola Paul:

Quote:
Paul was referring to people who are capable of making right and wrong decisons. Paul is not referring to babies because babies are not capable of making decision.


All simply means ALL. You seem to be adding additional qualifications to what Paul said.

The only thing nessesary in order to sin , or to have faith , is awareness. There is nothing in the Bible indicating an additional nessesity for a person to be able to intellectially articulate or have a consience ability to verbalize in order to sin or have faith. All that is nessesary is awareness.

As for what time this awareness developes , consider this from Luke 1:


15 For he will be great in the sight of the Lord, and shall drink neither wine nor strong drink. He will also be filled with the Holy Spirit, even from his motherís womb.

41 And it happened, when Elizabeth heard the greeting of Mary, that the babe leaped in her womb; and Elizabeth was filled with the Holy Spirit.

All are born sinners and neither infants nor the mentally retarded can be excluded on the basis of their intellectual developement.
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TK



Joined: 26 Jun 2006
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PostPosted: Mon Jun 02, 2008 5:02 am    Post subject: Reply with quote

Thomas wrote:

Quote:
All are born sinners and neither infants nor the mentally retarded can be excluded on the basis of their intellectual developement.


I know that we have discussed this at length elsewhere on this forum. I don't agree with the above statement. I don't believe that we are born sinners, but I do believe that we are born with a nature that will ultimately result in us sinning. At what age is sin possible? I am sure it will vary from child to child.

As for mentally retarded persons, if their disability means they don't have a true proper concept of right vs. wrong, I don't think their seemingly "bad behavior" could be deemed "sinning." This might be something of a radical statement, but I think it is true. To me the concept of sin entails the concept of rebellion. In other words- "i know this is wrong, but by gum I am going to do it anyway." Little children and mentally disabled persons may, or may not, be able to formulate this thought pattern. It depends.

One thing I am sure of is that God will do right by every person. Thank goodness He is the judge and not us.


TK
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Thomas



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PostPosted: Mon Jun 02, 2008 6:11 am    Post subject: Reply with quote

Hola TK:

We define sin differently.

I would define sin as failure to do God's will , or placing our own will above that of God. In the NT the word sin is translated from the Greek "hamartia" which in Classical Greek means " flaw" or " falling short of the mark" . Seen in this manner all infants are incapable of knowing God's will and are unable to do it. They are born sinners.

The thing is , that adults are not able to fully know or comply with God's will either , they are constantly tempted to do the own will. Sin can be a willfull act but is most normally emotional , a result of "I Want" or "I Feel" , repentence is a willfull act. The difference between the sin of an infant and that of an adult is one of type ,quantity and quality. At the same time the NT , while it does differentiate between sins , says that the end result is the same irregardless of what sin it is. "For the wages of sin is death"

My point of view is exactly the oposite of yours as , in my view, it is a question of at what age a person can be saved and not a question of at what age a person may be condemned. I prefer to begin the process as early as pÚssible.

I dont't want to imply that God is without mercy and does not save the infant irregardless of my opinion , I don't fully know God's will.

Quote:
One thing I am sure of is that God will do right by every person. Thank goodness He is the judge and not us.


Well said.
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TK



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PostPosted: Mon Jun 02, 2008 6:28 am    Post subject: Reply with quote

Hi Thomas-

for lack of a better term, you seem to suggest that sin is a universal "birth defect" that makes even babies culpable (due to their inability to even know God's will). is this what you are saying? i dont want to mis-rep your position.

TK
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Thomas



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PostPosted: Mon Jun 02, 2008 6:38 am    Post subject: Reply with quote

TK wrote:
Hi Thomas-

for lack of a better term, you seem to suggest that sin is a universal "birth defect" that makes even babies culpable (due to their inability to even know God's will). is this what you are saying? i dont want to mis-rep your position.

TK


I'll accept that. All , from conception , are seperated from God.

It's a pretty good definition of original sin.
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Paidion



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PostPosted: Mon Jun 02, 2008 7:06 am    Post subject: Reply with quote

Possibly the matter can be resolved if we compare:

All have sinned... Rom 3:23 with How can we who died to sin still live in it? Rom 6:2

If we have actually died to sin, it would be impossible to still live in it. Yet Paul advises the same ones who have died to sin, "Let not sin reign in your mortal bodies" (vs 12). If we had actually died to sin, it would be impossible to let sin reign in us.

But fortunately Paul explains what he means in saying that we have died to sin:

Or donít you know that all of us who were baptised into Christ Jesus were baptised into his death? We were therefore buried with him through baptism into death in order that, just as Christ was raised from the dead through the glory of the Father, we too may live a new life. If we have been united with him like this in his death, we will certainly also be united with him in his resurrection. For we know that our old self was crucified with him so that the body of sin might be done away with, that we should no longer be slaves to sinó because anyone who has died has been freed from sin. Rom 6:3-7

Paul seems to be saying that when we were baptised, our going down into the water not only symbolized our death to sin, but we actually underwent the process of dying to sin, being identified with Christ in His death ("we have been united with him in his death"). In this way the power of sin in our lives is broken.

Even Christ, who was without sin, is said to have died to sin:
The death he died, he died to sin... vs 10
So isn't his "death to sin" really his identification with us, and thus our "death to sin"?

Then Paul clinches it in verse 11:

In the same way, count yourselves dead to sin but alive to God in Christ Jesus.

When we count ourselves dead to sin, then freedom from sin can become a reality in our lives. Our baptismal "death to sin" doesn't in itself ensure that we will never sin.

And now for the comparison.

1. Our "death to sin" is not actual, but is an identification with Christ, and if we have faith ("count ourselves dead to sin") then freedom from sin, in a greater or lesser degree, becomes a certainty.

2. Similarily, "all have sinned", is not actual, but indicates our indentification with Adam and Eve, our sinning foreparents. Through the fall of Adam and Eve, and therefore genetically, sin in humanity becomes a certainty in a greater or lesser degree.


I agree with TK, that through the fall, we inherit a sinful nature. I think it could be safely affirmed that through Christ and His death, we are given a new, regenerated nature which tends toward righteousness.
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Thomas



Joined: 02 Mar 2006
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PostPosted: Mon Jun 02, 2008 8:18 am    Post subject: Reply with quote

From Paidion:

Quote:
I agree with TK, that through the fall, we inherit a sinful nature. I think it could be safely affirmed that through Christ and His death, we are given a new, regenerated nature which tends toward righteousness.


I agree also.

I think that what PaulEspino was getting at is that the ALL could not include all , because infants can not be held accountable for sinning. So that we are not dealing directly with the effect of regeneration but rather at what age a persons needs regeneration.

Romans 6:3-12 is a proof that baptism regenerates , but paedo-baptists use this as a reason to baptise infants while credo-baptists do not.
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Thomas



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PostPosted: Mon Jun 02, 2008 9:26 am    Post subject: Reply with quote

To clear up what is normally a confusion regarding regeneration:

Because credo-baptist hold that a person must first believe and then be baptised , they hold that regeneration (born again) and salvation are the same thing. Under this system that is quite logical and correct.

Paedo-baptist hold that a person is regenerated (born again) by baptism and freed from enslavement to sin , but is not saved until they believe. Whether that belief comes at the age of 2 or 72 is between the person and God.Salvation and born again are two seperate things.

That is , baptism is a check for salvation , from God , but it cannot be cashed in for salvation until belief occurs.
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darin-houston



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PostPosted: Mon Jun 02, 2008 9:36 am    Post subject: Reply with quote

Thomas wrote:
To clear up what is normally a confusion regarding regeneration:

Because credo-baptist hold that a person must first believe and then be baptised , they hold that regeneration (born again) and salvation are the same thing. Under this system that is quite logical and correct.

Paedo-baptist hold that a person is regenerated (born again) by baptism and freed from enslavement to sin , but is not saved until they believe. Whether that belief comes at the age of 2 or 72 is between the person and God.Salvation and born again are two seperate things.

That is , baptism is a check for salvation , from God , but it cannot be cashed in for salvation until belief occurs.


Is it possible, then, that the paedobaptist's check may never be cashed?

I haven't read this whole thread, but I see Christ's atonement as the check (not my baptism) and my cashing of the check comes when I repent and believe. Salvation comes in part through freedom from sin (in part) upon immediate regeneration (made more perfect and drawn upon through a life of sanctification), finally to withdraw the whole amount in the account upon justification at the time of resurrection.

I was christened/dedicated in the methodist church as a child, and I became ceremonially a member of the church so that they would help my parents raise me to know the Lord, but it had no salvific or even prefatory salvific effect nor do I understand the church to have thought so.

My in-laws are Lutherans, and though I've read a lot about it and listened to numerous debates, I just don't get it -- it seems so artificial and constructed from whole cloth to support a tradition born in a time of ignorance so that people could be controlled and made to believe they depended on the church to baptize them and keep them saved by avoiding excommunication, etc.
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Thomas



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PostPosted: Mon Jun 02, 2008 11:00 am    Post subject: Reply with quote

Quote:
Is it possible, then, that the paedobaptist's check may never be cashed?


Yes , belief is the ultimate requirement no matter what system you believe.

Quote:
I haven't read this whole thread, but I see Christ's atonement as the check


The illistration may break down after a while , but Christīs atonement is the payment you recieve when you cash the check of belief.

Quote:
[my cashing of the check comes when I repent and believe/quote]

True

[quoteSalvation comes in part through freedom from sin ]


No , through belief and baptism , no one is ever free from sin.

Quote:
upon immediate regeneration (made more perfect and drawn upon through a life of sanctification), finally to withdraw the whole amount in the account upon justification at the time of resurrection.


OYE! upon regeneration (baptism) and belief , promised in this life and finalized at the ressurrection.

Quote:
My in-laws are Lutherans, and though I've read a lot about it and listened to numerous debates, I just don't get it -- it seems so artificial and constructed from whole cloth to support a tradition born in a time of ignorance so that people could be controlled and made to believe they depended on the church to baptize them and keep them saved by avoiding excommunication, etc.


Many Lutherans do not understand the doctrine , I don't think we are the only church with this problem.

In Lutheran doctrine any Christian may validly baptise anouther , using the Trinitarian formula. I challenged a vicar and deacon over this about two weeks ago , and they had to admit I was right , but they didn't like it.

Like my father used to say , the only use for the pastor is to marry and bury , he being a life long devout Lutheran.
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Paidion



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PostPosted: Mon Jun 02, 2008 4:45 pm    Post subject: Reply with quote

Quote:
Yes , belief is the ultimate requirement no matter what system you believe.


The ultimate requirement for what? Getting to heaven?

I don't think so. What does God care about our faith? What God wanted from man right from the beginning was his obedience. He told Cain that he must master sin. So the ultimate requirement is practical righteousness, and this has been made possible by Jesus' sacrificial death:

[Jesus] has appeared once for all at the end of the age to do away with sin by the sacrifice of himself. Hebrews 9:26

For he will render to everyone according to his works: to those who by perseverance in well doing seek for glory and honour and immortality, he will give aeonion life; but for those who are self-seeking and are not persuaded by the truth, but are persuaded by wickedness, there will be wrath and fury.

Affliction and anguish for every person who does evil ... but glory and honour and well-being for every one who does good ... For God shows no partiality. (Romans 2:6-11)


The purpose of faith is to trust God to impart His enabling grace so that we can fulfill righteousness practically. The first step in doing so is not faiith. It is discipleship ---- and discipleship requires repentance, baptism, and complete submission, committment, and dedication:

Jesus said:

So therefore, whoever of you does not renounce all that he has cannot be my disciple. Luke 14:33

Jesus didn't say that he would be a poor disciple or an inadequate disciple. His words indicate that such a one cannot be his disciple at all!
Also, there is no difference between Christians and disciples. The first disciples of Christ were called "Christians" at Antioch.
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Paidion
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Thomas



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PostPosted: Mon Jun 02, 2008 9:37 pm    Post subject: Reply with quote

Paidion wrote:
Quote:
Yes , belief is the ultimate requirement no matter what system you believe.


The ultimate requirement for what? Getting to heaven?

I don't think so. What does God care about our faith? What God wanted from man right from the beginning was his obedience. .



Belief is the requirement , obedience the response. You will never work your way to heaven by perfect obedience , if you are without faith.

Obedience to the Law cannot save you , it can only condemn you when you fail to fullfill it 100%. It is the Gospel that saves , and that Gospel is , He that believes and is baptised will be saved.

But if there is no obedience there is no faith to begin with. I'm not OSAS so I believe one can lose salvation by refusing to obey and becoming reinslaved to sin. There is a difference in how people respond to God's Grace and does indicate whether or not they truly believe.

Put best by Dietrich Bonhoefer in "Cost of Decipleship"


"Cheap grace,means the justification of sin without the justification of the sinner. Grace alone does everything, they say, and so everything can remain as it was before....Cheap grace is the preaching of forgiveness without requiring repentance, baptism without church discipline, communion without confession, absolution without personal confession. Cheap grace is grace without discipleship, grace without the cross, grace without Jesus Christ, living and incarnate.

"Costly grace is the hidden treasure in the field; for the sake of it a man will gladly go and sell all that he has....Such grace is costly because it calls us to follow, and it is grace because if calls us to follow Jesus Christ. It is costly because it costs a man his life, and it is grace because it gives a man the only true life. It is costly because it condemns sin, and grace because it justifies the sinner. Above all, it is costly because it cost God the life of His Son: 'ye were bought with a price', and what has cost God much cannot be cheap for us. Above all, it is grace because God did not reckon His Son too dear a price to pay for our life, but delivered Him up for us, Costly grace is the Incarnation of God."
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TK



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PostPosted: Tue Jun 03, 2008 3:54 am    Post subject: Reply with quote

Paidion:

In Watchman Nee's book "the spiritual man" he spends many chapters going in depth into what you are discussing in your last couple of posts. He talks about "reckoning" ourselves dead to sin and the like. I must confess, however, that I struggle with this concept. I understand what it means, but I dont see how it works. How does simply "counting" or "reckoning" ourselves dead to sin result in "practical righteousness," as you put it?

I know that is what Paul says, but I have always struggled with this idea. Once again, it is not that I dont believe what the Word says; I have a hard time "getting it."

Let me put it this way: if a person truly, really, absolutely, and successfully reckons himself dead to sin, and has absolute faith that God's grace enables him to do so, does that mean the person will never sin again? if not, what does it mean? that he is less likely to sin? that he is less likely to sin a lot? that he is less likely to backslide? If a person really and truly counts himself dead to sin, but later sins, does that mean he really and truly DIDNT count himself dead to sin the last time and now he must try try again?

Any clarity you might provide on these points would be appreciated. By the way, I think teaching from the pulpit on this very subject is sadly lacking because I dont think hardly anybody, including pastors, understands it from a practical standpoint.

thanks,

TK
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