Did the torture of God's beloved Son satisfy Him?
Goto page Previous  1, 2, 3, 4, 5  Next
 
Post new topic   Reply to topic    Family Bible Fellowship Forum Index -> Misc. Theological Topics
View previous topic :: View next topic  
Author Message
Homer



Joined: 07 Jan 2005
Posts: 639
Location: Brownsville

PostPosted: Tue Oct 02, 2007 9:11 pm    Post subject: Reply with quote

Bob,
Quote:

BTW, IMO, you are taking Hebrews 10 completely out of context. Lets talk about it.


For if we sin deliberately after receiving the knowledge of the truth, there no longer remains a sacrifice for sins, but a fearful prospect of judgment, and a fury of fire which will consume the adversaries. Hebrews 10:26-27


When I grew up, this was the context:
Hebrews 10:24-25 (New King James Version)

24. And let us consider one another in order to stir up love and good works, 25. not forsaking the assembling of ourselves together, as is the manner of some, but exhorting one another, and so much the more as you see the Day approaching.


And I almost never miss a Sunday morning service, even when travelling. Laughing
_________________
A Berean
Back to top
View user's profile Send private message
Thomas



Joined: 02 Mar 2006
Posts: 48
Location: Panama

PostPosted: Wed Oct 03, 2007 3:44 am    Post subject: Reply with quote

Paidon:

A few clarifications on Luther:

Quote:
A similar phenomenon occured in the 16th century, when a monk by the name of Martin Luther gained a new insight into salvation.


Not so new as Augustine's writings against the Pelagians points out that we are justified by the Grace of Christ , and not by imitating his good works.

Quote:
He even added "alone" to his translation, and when questioned about it, verbally attacked the questioner, saying that this was what Paul meant, and so he had a perfect right to add it to his text.


Luther’s “An Open Letter on Translating”, dated 1530.
I know very well that in Romans 3 the word solum is not in the Greek or Latin text - the papists did not have to teach me that. It is fact that the letters s-o-l-a are not there. And these blockheads stare at them like cows at a new gate, while at the same time they do not recognize that it conveys the sense of the text - if the translation is to be clear and vigorous [klar und gewaltiglich], it belongs there.

· Romans 3:28: "Therefore we conclude that a man is justified by faith (alone) apart from the deeds of the law."

Does it change the meaning or clarify it?

Quote:
Luther understood the contradiction. He called the book of James "an epistle of straw" and placed it at the very end of his translation.


“In a word St. John’s Gospel and his first epistle, St. Paul’s epistles, especially Romans, Galatians, and Ephesians, and St. Peter’s first epistle are the books that show you Christ and teach you all that is necessary and salvatory for you to know, even if you were never to see or hear any other book or doctrine. Therefore St. James’ epistle is really an epistle of straw compared to these others, for it has nothing of the nature of the gospel about it. But more of this in the other prefaces.”

Luther wrote this statement in his original Preface To The New Testament in 1522: He subsequently reconsidered and dropped it in the newer editions.

And this is how he reconciled James and Paul:

“The question is asked, “How can justification take place without the works of the Law, and how by the works of the Law can there be no justification, since James 2:26 clearly states: ‘Faith apart from works is dead’ and ‘a man is justified by works,’ using the example of Abraham and Rahab (James 2:23-25)?” And Paul himself in Gal. 5:6 speaks of “faith working through love,” and above in chapter 2:13 he says that “the doers of the Law will be justified before God.” The answer to this question is that the apostle is distinguishing between the Law and faith, or between the letter and grace, and thus also between their respective works. The works of the Law are those, he says, which take place outside of faith and grace and are done at the urging of the Law, which either forces obedience through fear or allures us through the promise of temporal blessings. But the works of faith, he says, are those which are done out of the spirit of liberty and solely for the love of God. And the latter cannot be accomplished except by those who have been justified by faith, to which justification the works of the Law add nothing, indeed, they strongly hinder it, since they do not permit a man to see himself as unrighteous and in need of justification.”

Faith is a living, restless thing. It cannot be inoperative. We are not saved by works; but if there be no works, there must be something amiss with faith


Quote:
He even advised one person to "sin a little bit to spite the devil".


I believe you are referring to his letter to Melancthon , who was a bit self righteous and thought he had nothing to repent of.

If you are a preacher of grace, then preach a true and not a fictitious grace; if grace is true, you must bear a true and not a fictitious sin. God does not save people who are only fictitious sinners. Be a sinner and sin boldly, but believe and rejoice in Christ even more boldly, for he is victorious over sin, death, and the world. As long as we are here [in this world] we have to sin. This life is not the dwelling place of righteousness, but, as Peter says, we look for new heavens and a new earth in which righteousness dwells. It is enough that by the riches of God's glory we have come to know the Lamb that takes away the sin of the world. No sin will separate us from the Lamb, even though we commit fornication and murder a thousand times a day. Do you think that the purchase price that was paid for the redemption of our sins by so great a Lamb is too small? Pray boldly--you too are a mighty sinner.


Quote:
The view of substitutionary atonement often results in people believing that it is impossible to be righteous, impossible not to sin.


It is certainly possible to be righteous , through repentance , but possible not to sin? I've never met anyone who wasn't a sinner , although I've met some who thought they weren't. Absolute sanctification is not something attainable in this life.

Quote:
First we are to strive for holiness. Make a genuine effort. Not that the effort alone will suffice. But we need to coöperate with the enabling grace of God. This is how we do so, by striving, and by coming to the throne of Grace to receive mercy and help in a time of need. But we must also trust that God will enable us. This is the faith through which we are being saved by the enabling grace of God. [Eph 2:8]. I know Paul says in Ephesians, "you have been saved". Since "He who began a good work in you will bring it to completion in the day of Jesus Christ", we may as well say we "have been saved from sin" now! It's an integral part of faith to believe we shall continue on the road of salvation until that salvation is compete.


Yes exactly so , and we strive through repentence.

Thomas
Back to top
View user's profile Send private message
STEVE7150



Joined: 19 Jun 2005
Posts: 894

PostPosted: Wed Oct 03, 2007 4:11 am    Post subject: Reply with quote

Luther’s “An Open Letter on Translating”, dated 1530.
I know very well that in Romans 3 the word solum is not in the Greek or Latin text - the papists did not have to teach me that. It is fact that the letters s-o-l-a are not there. And these blockheads stare at them like cows at a new gate, while at the same time they do not recognize that it conveys the sense of the text - if the translation is to be clear and vigorous [klar und gewaltiglich], it belongs there.

· Romans 3:28: "Therefore we conclude that a man is justified by faith (alone) apart from the deeds of the law."




I think that Luther may have misunderstood that James was not speaking of the law of Moses but the "law of liberty" or the "royal law" and the many allusions that James made to the sermon on the mount. Would Luther have rejected the sermon on the mount also?
Back to top
View user's profile Send private message
STEVE7150



Joined: 19 Jun 2005
Posts: 894

PostPosted: Wed Oct 03, 2007 4:13 am    Post subject: Reply with quote

Homer, thanks for the Hick's article on the atonement, really good.
Back to top
View user's profile Send private message
TK



Joined: 26 Jun 2006
Posts: 699
Location: Northeast Ohio

PostPosted: Wed Oct 03, 2007 4:31 am    Post subject: Reply with quote

homer wrote:

Quote:
We are saved by faith - faith that works. Faith working through love.



or, as i heard in a sermon not long ago:

"we are saved by faith, not works. but we are not saved unless our faith works."

that formulation solves the conundrum for me.

TK
_________________
"Were not our hearts burning within us? (Lk 24:32)
Back to top
View user's profile Send private message
Father_of_five



Joined: 15 Nov 2004
Posts: 213
Location: Texas USA

PostPosted: Wed Oct 03, 2007 5:39 am    Post subject: Reply with quote

This is a follow-up to my earlier question. Let me clarify.

According to substitutionary attonement doctrine, Christ suffered a horrible death (endured God's wrath) in our place, delivering us from God's punishment for our own sin if we live in faith. This seems to say that those who are "saved" will be ushered into heaven without any punishment, while those who are not saved will suffer immeasurably.

This aspect of the doctrine doesn't seem to conform to the following verses.

Col 3:25
But he that doeth wrong shall receive for the wrong which he hath done: and there is no respect of persons.

1 Pet 1:17
And if ye call on the Father, who without respect of persons judgeth according to every man's work, pass the time of your sojourning here in fear:

2 Cor 5:10
For we must all appear before the judgment seat of Christ, that each one may receive the things done in the body, according to what he has done, whether good or bad.

Rom 2:5-11
5 But in accordance with your hardness and your impenitent heart you are treasuring up for yourself wrath in the day of wrath and revelation of the righteous judgment of God, 6 who "will render to each one according to his deeds": 7 eternal life to those who by patient continuance in doing good seek for glory, honor, and immortality; 8 but to those who are self-seeking and do not obey the truth, but obey unrighteousness--indignation and wrath, 9 tribulation and anguish, on every soul of man who does evil, of the Jew first and also of the Greek; 10 but glory, honor, and peace to everyone who works what is good, to the Jew first and also to the Greek. 11 For there is no partiality with God.

These verses seem to indicate that the judgment will be based on what we have done, not what Christ has done. Hence, it is extremely important to be delivered from our sins (that we sin no more) in order to be saved from the resulting punishment.

Can anyone provide any clear passages which indicate (contrary to these verses) that anyone will not receive punishment for the bad things done while in the body?...or will not receive for the good things done while in the body. Where does it say that our judgment is based on what Christ has done?

Todd


Last edited by Father_of_five on Wed Oct 03, 2007 9:17 am; edited 1 time in total
Back to top
View user's profile Send private message
Father_of_five



Joined: 15 Nov 2004
Posts: 213
Location: Texas USA

PostPosted: Wed Oct 03, 2007 12:31 pm    Post subject: Reply with quote

Traveler wrote:
I think we as believers should distinguish between what is "punishment" as in eternally "paying" for our sins, or when we sin, being "disciplined" as children of our Father in heaven in love. I John 3:1-24, Heb 12:4-11.


Bob,

If I understand you correctly, you believe that the verses I quoted refer only to the "disciplining" we receive as children of God and have nothing to do with "Judgement Day." Do I understand you correctly? If so, may I ask which scriptures refer to the final judgment and indicate that our judgment is based on what Christ has done? I don't think any of the verses you referred to in your post mention Judgment Day.

Todd
Back to top
View user's profile Send private message
Father_of_five



Joined: 15 Nov 2004
Posts: 213
Location: Texas USA

PostPosted: Wed Oct 03, 2007 3:16 pm    Post subject: Reply with quote

Traveler wrote:
It seems to me what is being discussed by Paul here is about a believers "works", not sins.


So, it is possible to have "bad" works that are not sin?

How would this concept fit with the sheep and the goats (Matt 25:31-46). Here we have all nations gathered before Christ for judgment. His judgment criteria seems to be about our works (not Christ's).


Traveler wrote:
There is a contrasting difference between a judgement of works and a judgement of sin.


Are not sins unrighteous works? I don't really see a distinction between works of unrighteousness and sins.

Let's look closer at the verse from Romans 2

Rom 2:5-11
5 But in accordance with your hardness and your impenitent heart you are treasuring up for yourself wrath in the day of wrath and revelation of the righteous judgment of God, 6 who "will render to each one according to his deeds": 7 eternal life to those who by patient continuance in doing good seek for glory, honor, and immortality; 8 but to those who are self-seeking and do not obey the truth, but obey unrighteousness--indignation and wrath, 9 tribulation and anguish, on every soul of man who does evil, of the Jew first and also of the Greek; 10 but glory, honor, and peace to everyone who works what is good, to the Jew first and also to the Greek. 11 For there is no partiality with God.

The part I particularly want to point out is bolded in verse 7. It states that eternal life is granted to those who are patiently continuing in good works. It does not say that eternal life is granted based on what Christ did. It goes on to say that those who obey unrighteousness receive God's wrath, but those who do what is good receive glory, honor and peace. Again, all based on what we do.

But let me say, that it is Christ who sent forth His Spirit which enables us to do what is good and shun that which is evil. Apart from Christ we are crippled.

Todd
Back to top
View user's profile Send private message
Paidion



Joined: 25 Jul 2005
Posts: 944
Location: Chapple, Ontario

PostPosted: Wed Oct 03, 2007 5:07 pm    Post subject: Reply with quote

Traveler wrote:
So what did you do with the LAW in your construct? You have yet to answer from the LAW"S demand upon the sinner. What do you do with guilt under the LAW?


First, I would like to know to which "LAW" you refer? The LAW of Moses? Or the LAW of God? Hard as the law of Moses seemed, the law of God was much more demanding. The law of Christ expressed in the so-called "Sermon on the mount" in Matthew 5,6, and 7 went deeper that the mere outward observance expressed in the Mosaic law. Christ taught that "hating" is tantamount to "murder", that desiring another man's wife is tantamount to commiting adultery with her. Jesus taught that it was not enough to avoid swearing falsely, but one was not to take an oath at all.

The LAW of God was given for man's benefit, not for God's. Man's sin doesn't directly affect God, so why would he "demand payment" for it? This idea is not what the Bible teaches. It is a mere interpretation of passage which, in my understanding do not mean that at all.

The command in the OT to kill the adulterer, and those who committed other offences, was to try to keep the Israelites on track concerning the covenant God made with them. Of course, God is grieved when we sin. But He is not grieved because "His holiness demands it". He is grieved because we are harming ourselves and others. He doesn't have to be "paid" for the sin we commit. Yes, we owe Him our lives; for He created man. But we don't owe Him because of our failures to live righteously. Rather we owe ourselves to live righteously ---- for to do so is for our own benefit. God will not tolerate unrighteousness in heaven, and if we do not start on the road to discipleship and continue therein, we will face the judgment, and its results: the corrective fires of Gehenna. God insists that we become complete, perfect, and pure --- conformed to the image of Christ. We shall be like Him, for we shall see Him as He really is.

Let's think about Christ's teaching about the LAW in the following account:

Mark 10: 17 And as he was setting out on his journey, a man ran up and knelt before him, and asked him, "Good Teacher, what must I do to inherit eternal life?"

How did Jesus answer? Did He pull out the "four spiritual laws"? Did He tell him about His impending death, and that he would have to trust in His sacrifice on his behalf? Did He suggest that it was no use trying to keep the LAW, since he'd never succeed anyway? No. Jesus pointed out some of the ten commandments in His answer:

19 You know the commandments: ‘Do not kill, Do not commit adultery, Do not steal, Do not bear false witness, Do not defraud, Honor your father and mother.’"
20 And he said to him, "Teacher, all these I have observed from my youth."


Now how did Jesus answer? Did he say, "Oh, you might think you've kept them, but you're fooling youself. You haven't kept them perfectly all your life. It's impossible to do so. No, Jesus gave no indication that He disbelieved him at all. But the young man still lacked one little thing:

21 And Jesus looking upon him loved him, and said to him, "You lack one thing; go, sell what you have, and give to the poor, and you will have treasure in heaven; and come, follow me."

Ahhh! the call to discipleship! It requires forsaking one's own ambitions and following Christ completely. This is the same message Christ gave to the multitudes:

If any one comes to me and does not disregard his own father and mother and wife and children and brothers and sisters, yes, and even his own life, he cannot be my disciple. Whoever does not bear his own cross and come after me, cannot be my disciple. Luke 14:26-27

He then gave a parable about counting the personal cost of being His disciple and then finished with:

So therefore, whoever of you does not renounce all that he has cannot be my disciple. Luke 14:33

Yes, our Lord taught that we have to let go of the old self-life, die to it completely, and live a life of service to him. The requirement to obtain eternal life is to become a disciple of Christ. This requirement has not changed. It includes repentance and baptism. John the baptizer taught the same. So did Peter and Paul and the other apostles.

How did the young man respond to the call to discipleship?

22 At that saying his countenance fell, and he went away sorrowful; for he had great possessions.

He was unable to forsake all that he had, for he still put his possessions first. He could not enter into the kingdom [rule] of God at that time.
_________________
Paidion
Avatar --- Age 45
"Not one soul will ever be redeemed from hell but by being saved from his sins, from the evil in him." --- George MacDonald
Back to top
View user's profile Send private message
STEVE7150



Joined: 19 Jun 2005
Posts: 894

PostPosted: Wed Oct 03, 2007 5:49 pm    Post subject: Reply with quote

The LAW of God was given for man's benefit, not for God's. Man's sin doesn't directly affect God, so why would he "demand payment" for it? This idea is not what the Bible teaches. It is a mere interpretation of passage which, in my understanding do not mean that at all.


Paidion, As you know in Lev 17.11 it says "without the shedding of blood there is no forgiveness of sin" which refers to man needing forgiveness from God for his sins. So there is a sacrifice of blood here from an animal for a pardon from God to the sinner for previous sins committed.
Why does God require this? This does appear to be a transaction or to put it another way, a payment of a life of an animal to pardon sin. Same God here as in the NT correct?
So God commanded this transaction for man to obtain not deliverance but forgiveness. And who is doing the forgiving? Is it man forgiving himself or is it God doing the forgiving conditional on the spilling of blood.
You can read into this and think that God wanted man to know the gravity of sin therefore this spilling of blood would be a vivid reminder about the seriousness of sin and while this may be true, the bare facts remain that God demanded a payment.
It is also true that later in the OT God said He perfers repentence over sacrifice but he never did remove this command until the ultimate one was made.
Back to top
View user's profile Send private message
Father_of_five



Joined: 15 Nov 2004
Posts: 213
Location: Texas USA

PostPosted: Wed Oct 03, 2007 6:45 pm    Post subject: Reply with quote

Paidion wrote:
Of course, God is grieved when we sin. But He is not grieved because "His holiness demands it". He is grieved because we are harming ourselves and others. He doesn't have to be "paid" for the sin we commit. Yes, we owe Him our lives; for He created man. But we don't owe Him because of our failures to live righteously. Rather we owe ourselves to live righteously ---- for to do so is for our own benefit.


Paidion, I really like the way you have presented this truth, and agree 100%. Very Happy

I would like to add one small addendum to the last statement I quoted.

You said,
"Rather we owe ourselves to live righteously ---- for to do so is for our own benefit."

I'll add,
"and for the benefit of those who are blessed as a result of our service to them."

Todd
Back to top
View user's profile Send private message
Rick_C



Joined: 23 Dec 2005
Posts: 145
Location: West Central Ohio

PostPosted: Thu Oct 04, 2007 12:51 am    Post subject: Reply with quote

Paidion,

The story of the Rich Young Ruler in Mark 10 is about "The Missing Commandment."

This man had kept each of the 10 Commandments Jesus mentioned that have to do with relationships with other people, as well as another commandment: "You shall not defraud (a lowly or poor servant)" (De 24:14).

Where this man missed the mark was his not keeping one of the 10 Commandments. Namely, 10. YOU SHALL NOT COVET, which Jesus had, strangely, not mentioned to him.

Was this a test to see if he would ask about the one Commandment he undoubtedly knew he failed at? But since Jesus did not mention it, was he "off the hook" now? (It seems he initially thought so, v. 20).

You wrote:
Mark 10:21 And Jesus looking upon him loved him, and said to him, "You lack one thing; go, sell what you have, and give to the poor, and you will have treasure in heaven; and come, follow me."

Ahhh! the call to discipleship! It requires forsaking one's own ambitions and following Christ completely.


Sure, we're called to discipleship. However, like for the Rich Young Ruler; discipleship includes obeying every Law of God. Mark 10:21 is about the 10th Commandment...which this young man had, apparently, been quite guilty of breaking. This verse is not a universal call for everyone to sell all their stuff and give it away. However, for this man it was required of the Lord.

Our call to discipleship will always be beneficial to us since the Lord loves us and knows what we lack. Somewhere it says, "His commands are not burdensome (or grievious)." That is, unless we love money or some other person or thing more than God.

James 2, NASB
10For whoever keeps the whole law and yet stumbles in one point, he has become guilty of all. 11For He who said, "DO NOT COMMIT ADULTERY," also said, "DO NOT COMMIT MURDER." Now if you do not commit adultery, but do commit murder, you have become a transgressor of the law.


James is reaffirming exactly what his brother taught, imo.
Rick

P.S. I hadn't noticed this passage is really about "The Missing Commandment" till someone @ Beliefnet pointed it out.

"O God, am I skimping over any of your Commands?
Take not Thy Holy Spirit from me! In Jesus' Name, Amen."
_________________
16 OCT 2008: This nick is no longer active.
I post on the "new forum" as RickC:
http://theos.org/forum/index.php
Thanks, and God bless you.
Back to top
View user's profile Send private message
Rick_C



Joined: 23 Dec 2005
Posts: 145
Location: West Central Ohio

PostPosted: Thu Oct 04, 2007 2:38 am    Post subject: Reply with quote

Traveler Bob wrote:
The primary issue revealed in the Law is about who God is. His holiness, nature and character, His "otherness" if you will, are all bound up in who He is and as His Image bearers, how we are to treat each other. We do offend God when we violate His Laws against our neighbors. It is against is Holiness.


I'd like to add the "position" of God to the discussion: Our Holy God, in all of His attributes, nature, and character, also has a Kingdom and One who fills the position of its King: JESUS (REIGNS)! ...I'm Amill, just had to say that, Wink

Anyways, where was I? Praise the Lord! Oh yeah....

Sovereign rulers or kings have the rule of law which serves the purpose of maintaining order. Law and/or laws are beneficial not only for the subjects of a king, or to citizens of a kingdom; they are beneficial to the king himself. It's quite beneficial -- and absolutely necessary for all concerned (to the ruler and to the ruled) -- that order is maintained. This applies across the board in all governments, whether earthly or divine: Without law you have anarchy. Therefore, God benefits from His Laws. He says, "I will be their God and they will be My People."
Rick
_________________
16 OCT 2008: This nick is no longer active.
I post on the "new forum" as RickC:
http://theos.org/forum/index.php
Thanks, and God bless you.
Back to top
View user's profile Send private message
Father_of_five



Joined: 15 Nov 2004
Posts: 213
Location: Texas USA

PostPosted: Thu Oct 04, 2007 5:41 am    Post subject: Reply with quote

Traveler wrote:
Hello Todd,

Quote: ..."The part I particularly want to point out is bolded in verse 7. It states that eternal life is granted to those who are patiently continuing in good works. It does not say that eternal life is granted based on what Christ did"...

You cannot take a few verses from Romans and establish that "works" as you are using the term, saves us from the wrath of God. To be sure, the quality of our works will be under God's scrutiny. I already cited Paul in I Cor. 3:13-15 on the matter. Have you considered this? If you follow Pauls train of thought throughout Romans, you will see that Christ's sacrifice and blood Atonement is the central motif in the flow of his letter. His righteousness is contrasted with a legal righteousness imposed under the Law. A law that cannot save, only convict men of their sin and unrighteousness before a Holy God who demands it. To be sure we are called to righteousness, to be holy in all our conduct-even strive for it. But remember what our Lord also said in Mat. in the beatitudes, "Blessed are those who hunger and thirst for righteousness...", blessed are the poor in Spirit for theirs is the Kingdom of Heaven".. Why do you suppose Jesus said this? Righteousness is demanded by and grounded in the very nature and being of God. We have failed to attain it. The reason why righteousness is so important is that man does not have it! We must be made aware we don't have it. I am sure that there are those here who may be pleased with their character.. Paul shows us the shallowness of such an outlook, IMO. Salvation in Christ is a gift you don't "work" for to recieve. As Paul stated else where, it wouldn't be a gift but a wage.


Bob,

I appreciate your patience with me and my assertions. Let me explain my position on these issues. I am a believer in Universal Roconciliation through Christ. I am afraid that my posts seem to de-emphasize what Christ did for us. Let me be clear. I believe that Christ accomplished Universal Reconciliation for all of mankind through His obedience (Rom 5:10, 2 Cor 5:19). He also conquered death and paved the way for the resurrection of both the just and the unjust. However, what I was attempting to point out, is that even though we have been reconciled, God still calls us to righteousness and wants us to help each other through the struggles of life. He rewards and punishes us based on what we do in this regard. All the verses about the judgment of mankind are consistent on this point - we are rewarded and punished according to our works. I must emphasize the word "according" because this means that it is porportional - not endless. Ulitmately, every knee will bow and every tongue confess that Christ is Lord, and we will all be part of the Everlasting Kingdom.

The reason I bring this up in this thread is because I think it supports Paidion's point. God is not encumbered with human frailties, such as needing to be appeased. But He does have compassion on ALL His creation and desires that each one of us serves others (following Christ's example) so that burdens are lessened and love and joy are spread. And in our doing so, God finds satisfaction.

Todd
Back to top
View user's profile Send private message
Paidion



Joined: 25 Jul 2005
Posts: 944
Location: Chapple, Ontario

PostPosted: Thu Oct 04, 2007 6:50 am    Post subject: Reply with quote

Rick wrote:
Sure, we're called to discipleship. However, like for the Rich Young Ruler; discipleship includes obeying every Law of God.


If that is the case, Rick, have there ever been any disciples of Christ on earth?

Or do you mean "discipleship includes intention to obey every Law of God"?
_________________
Paidion
Avatar --- Age 45
"Not one soul will ever be redeemed from hell but by being saved from his sins, from the evil in him." --- George MacDonald
Back to top
View user's profile Send private message
Display posts from previous:   
Post new topic   Reply to topic    Family Bible Fellowship Forum Index -> Misc. Theological Topics All times are GMT - 8 Hours
Goto page Previous  1, 2, 3, 4, 5  Next
Page 3 of 5

 
Jump to:  
You cannot post new topics in this forum
You cannot reply to topics in this forum
You cannot edit your posts in this forum
You cannot delete your posts in this forum
You cannot vote in polls in this forum


Powered by phpBB © 2001, 2005 phpBB Group

BlueSilver_C 1.00 Theme was programmed by DEVPPL JavaScript Forum
Images were made by DEVPPL Flash Games