"Time texts" in the Septuagint

 
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Ely



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PostPosted: Mon Nov 27, 2006 5:08 pm    Post subject: "Time texts" in the Septuagint Reply with quote

Proposed parallel meaning of "en tachei" and "eggus" in Revelation 1 and 22

Introduction
I believe that we can deduce the intended meaning of "en tachei" in Revelation 1 and 22 by looking at a word which is used alongside it in both cases. That word is "eggus" [Strong's # 1451] and is usually translated as “at hand” or “near”:

Revelation 1
"The Revelation of Jesus Christ, which God gave Him to show His servants—things which must shortly [en tachei] take place. And He sent and signified it by His angel to His servant John, 2 who bore witness to the word of God, and to the testimony of Jesus Christ, to all things that he saw. 3 Blessed is he who reads and those who hear the words of this prophecy, and keep those things which are written in it; for the time is near ["eggus"]."

Revelation 22
Then he said to me, “These words are faithful and true.” And the Lord God of the holy prophets sent His angel to show His servants the things which must [b]shortly [en tachei] take place. 7 “Behold, I am coming quickly! Blessed is he who keeps the words of the prophecy of this book.”... 10 And he said to me, “Do not seal the words of the prophecy of this book, for the time is at hand [eggus]"

In these passages, the term “eggus” seems to have a parallel (i.e., identical) meaning to “en tachei." In the vast majority of places in the NT, "eggus" means "very close in time, place or position". Based on this fact, it would be understandable for one to conclude (with the preterist exegete) that this same meaning is intended in Revelation.

However, eggus is also used several times in the Septuagint in a way which cannot have this meaning. Significantly, these passages are all (IMO) describing the second coming (parousia) of Messiah. As all are agreed upon, this is the ultimate subject of Revelation. Because of this, I suggest that the way in which "eggus" is used in these Septuagint passages should instruct us as to how it is being used in Revelation. So, let's have a look at them:


"Eggus" in Deuteronomy 32 LXX
35 In the day of vengeance I will recompense, whensoever their foot shall be tripped up; for the day of their destruction is near [eggus] to them, and the judgments at hand are close upon you. 36 For the Lord shall judge his people, and shall be comforted over his servants.

When was this "day of destruction" to take place? Well, this passage is twice quoted from in the NT. On one occasion the writer seems to be applying it to a time yet future from him:

Hebrews 10
“23 Let us hold fast the confession of our hope without wavering, for He who promised is faithful. 24 And let us consider one another in order to stir up love and good works, 25 not forsaking the assembling of ourselves together, as is the manner of some, but exhorting one another, and so much the more as you see the Day approaching. 26 For if we sin willfully after we have received the knowledge of the truth, there no longer remains a sacrifice for sins, 27 but a certain fearful expectation of judgment, and fiery indignation which will devour the adversaries. 28 Anyone who has rejected Moses’ law dies without mercy on the testimony of two or three witnesses. 29 Of how much worse punishment, do you suppose, will he be thought worthy who has trampled the Son of God underfoot, counted the blood of the covenant by which he was sanctified a common thing, and insulted the Spirit of grace? 30 For we know Him who said, “Vengeance is Mine, I will repay,” says the Lord. And again, “The LORD will judge His people.” 31 It is a fearful thing to fall into the hands of the living God.”

Many commentators understand AD70 to be "the Day" mentioned here. This would make it the same day which was “at hand” in Moses’ day. If this be true, then the writer of Hebrews did not understand the use of eggus in Deuteronomy 32:35-36 LXX to be denoting something immediately imminent as in within the lifetime of Moses and his original audience.


"Eggus" in Isaiah 13 LXX
It is widely acknowledged that Jesus alluded strongly to passages such in Isaiah 13 in His Olivet discourse and His Revelation. I believe that ultimately, Isaiah is referring to the very same events as Jesus was. A preterist interpreter would differ, and would understand that Isaiah and Jesus were using the same (highly figurative) imagery to talk about different events. Either way, it is insightful to see how the Septuagint uses the Greek word eggus in this chapter:

Isaiah 13 LXX
6 Howl ye, for the day of the Lord is near [eggus], and destruction from God shall arrive. 7 Therefore every hand shall become powerless, and every soul of man shall be dismayed…

The event directly in view is the fall of Babylon which took place around 539 BC. The last king of Judah that Isaiah ministered under was Hezekiah. This places Isaiah's words at 680 BC at the latest, a full one hundred and forty years before the fall of Babylon. Again, whatever eggus meant here, it did not denote something immediately imminent as in within the lifetime of Isaiah and his original audience.


"Eggus" in Joel 3 LXX
13 Bring forth the sickles, for the vintage is come: go in, tread the grapes, for the press is full: cause the vats to overflow; for their wickedness is multiplied. 14 Noises have resounded in the valley of judgment: for the day of the Lord is near [eggus] in the valley of judgment. 15 The sun and the moon shall be darkened, and the stars shall withdraw their light.

Okay, so when was the Holy Spiirit indicating that this "day of the Lord" would occur? Well, it was not going to happen before the events which had been proclaimed just beforehand:

Joel 2 LXX
28 And it shall come to pass afterward, that I will pour out of my Spirit upon all flesh; and your sons and your daughters shall prophesy, and your old men shall dream dreams, and your young men shall see visions. 29 And on my servants and on my handmaids in those days will I pour out of my Spirit. 30 And I will shew wonders in heaven, and upon the earth, blood, and fire, and vapor of smoke. 31 The sun shall be turned into darkness, and the moon into blood, before the great and glorious day of the Lord come. 32 And it shall come to pass that whosoever shall call on the name of the Lord shall be saved"

This passage began to be fulfilled on the first Pentecost after Jesus’ ascension (Acts 2). The day which was "at hand" [eggus] in Joel's day could not have taken place until after this day of Pentecost. Once again, “eggus” here did not denote something immediately imminent as in within the lifetime of Joel and his original audience.


Tentative conclusions
Clearly, despite the use of “eggus” (often translated “at hand”), the Septuagint translators did not understand Deuteronomy 32:35, Isaiah 13 or Joel 3 to be describing events which would take place in the immediate future within the lifetime of the writer and his original audience. What then did eggus mean in these instances?

Well, one explanation is that the prophets were speaking with God's timing in mind, i.e. with Him a day is like a thousand years and a thousand years like a day. I know that preterists scoff at such notions but sorry fellas, I think it's at least possible. However, I think if we return to Revelation, a better answer may be available.

Revelation, Isaiah 13 and Joel 3 use very similar language and on the surface, describe very similar events. They all speak of devastating warfare in which the Lord Himself destroys His enemies amidst awesome stellar disturbances and terrestial dissaray. Even if Jesus is not talking about the same event as the prophets (which I think He is), He is clearly alluding to such passages. It makes sense that He would use words such as "eggus" in the same manner as they were used in these Septuagint passages in order to communicate with 1st Century saints who were familiar with these passages in the Septuagint.

In Revelation 1:1 and 22:6, “en tachei” is paralleled with “eggus.” As I said before, I believe that they were being used to express the very same idea and that they interpret eachother. Both words were referring to the swiftness of those events once they commenced rather than the imminent occurence of the events.

in Christ,
Ely
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Paidion



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PostPosted: Mon Nov 27, 2006 6:12 pm    Post subject: Reply with quote

Thank you, Ely. I have never encountered the use of "eggus" to mean anything but "near" in terms of distance or time.
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Ely



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PostPosted: Tue Nov 28, 2006 8:30 am    Post subject: Reply with quote

Hey Paidon,

From I've seen, eggus is indeed normally used in this sense in the NT. I found this interesting quote from a preterist:

"When a writer says that an event will shortly and speedily come to pass, or is about to take place, it is contrary to all propriety to declare that his statements allow us to believe the event is in the far future. It is a reprehensible abuse of language to say that the words immediately, or near at hand, mean ages hence, or after a long time. Such a treatment of the language of Scripture is even worse than the theory of a double sense." (Milton Terry, in a footnote in the following article: http://www.preteristsite.com/docs/demarhindson5.html#6 )

I wonder if he would say the same thing when looking at these LXX passages.
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psychohmike



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PostPosted: Fri Jan 12, 2007 9:02 am    Post subject: An hour = Two millenia ? ? ? Reply with quote

Considering the time texts in light of the whole NT writings makes me ever more certain that the time was "at hand" in its plain meaning. And I would even say that you have made an interesting observation. Is it compelling? In isolation yes. In light of the whole. No. But I suppose if you can explain why all of these other statements are NOT to be understood plainly, I would have something to consider.

However I do become rather suspicious when someone has to search and work so hard to make something plain enigmatic.

1.) Matthew 10:23--Jesus said he would return in the lifetime of his disciples.

2.) Matthew 16:27-28--Jesus said he would return with his angels to judge all men before every one standing there died. Please read it!

3.) Matthew 24:29-34--Jesus said he would return in the clouds with his angels--in that generation!

4.) Matthew 5:17-18--If the Old Prophets have not been fulfilled the Old Covenant is still in effect, .

5.) Romans 13:12--Paul said "the day is at hand."

6.) Romans 16:20--Paul said God "will bruise Satan under your feet shortly."

7.) I Corinthians 1:4-8--Paul said the Corinthians would have the miraculous gifts until "the end," the Day of the Lord.

8.) I Corinthians 7:28-31--Paul said "the fashion of this world is passing away," and "the time is short."

9.) I Corinthians 15:51f--We shall not all sleep(DIE), but we shall all be changed—Paul said not all of them then living would die before the resurrection.

10.) Philippians 3:20-4:5--Paul spoke of the resurrection at Christ's coming and said "The Lord is at hand."

10.5.) 1Thessalonians 4:17 Then we who are alive and remain shall be caught up together with them. Paul said that some of them would not die before the return of the Lord.

11.) I Timothy 6:14--Paul told Timothy to live faithfully "until the appearing of our Lord."

12.) Hebrews 9:28; 10:37--The writer said Christ would appear a second time for salvation and then asserted "in a very, very little while he that will come will come, and will not tarry." Isn't it sad that man says Christ HAS DELAYED, in spite of what this verse says? WHAT DOES INSPIRATION MEAN? DID THE WRITER LIE? WAS HE MISTAKEN?

13.) James 5:7-9--James urged his readers to be faithful "until the coming of the Lord;" he says "The coming of the Lord is at hand:" and "The judge is standing right at the door."

14.) I Peter 4:5,7,17--Peter said Jesus was then "ready to judge the living and the dead;" "the end of all things is at hand;" and "the time is come for the judgment to begin at the house of God."

15.) I John 2:15-18--John said the world was passing away and "it is the last hour."

And you got some serious explaining to do with that last one. If the "Last Days," leading up to that point had lasted about 40 years...Then how can the last hour of those last days last 50 times longer.

Do you have any scriptures that say that "Two millenia is like an hour and an hour is like two millenia?"

If time allows I will make a more to the point assesment of your claims.

mike
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Ely



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PostPosted: Fri Jan 12, 2007 11:24 am    Post subject: Reply with quote

Hey Mike, I was only interested in addressing the alleged iron-cast proof of preterism found in these "time texts."

As for those texts, I'm not a fan of the kind of discussion which lumps a whole load of texts together. I would be more than willing to discuss each one of those passages one by one and and see if they inexorably lead to preterism (full or partial).
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psychohmike



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PostPosted: Fri Jan 12, 2007 11:38 am    Post subject: Reply with quote

Ely wrote:
Hey Mike, I was only interested in addressing the alleged iron-cast proof of preterism found in these "time texts."

As for those texts, I'm not a fan of the kind of discussion which lumps a whole load of texts together. I would be more than willing to discuss each one of those passages one by one and and see if they inexorably lead to preterism (full or partial).


Sorry but I am a little suspicious when someone wants to consider a text outside of it's context. The new testament authors were all writing about the same things. Obviously you see the weight of the evidence in the new testament as a whole. On the other hand if you have some evidence that the authors were all speaking of different things, I would be more than happy to listen.

mike
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Ely



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PostPosted: Fri Jan 12, 2007 11:48 am    Post subject: Reply with quote

psychohmike wrote:
Sorry but I am a little suspicious when someone wants to consider a text outside of it's context. The new testament authors were all writing about the same things. Obviously you see the weight of the evidence in the new testament as a whole. On the other hand if you have some evidence that the authors were all speaking of different things, I would be more than happy to listen.

NB - If I was aware of an overhwelming or even strong biblical evidence for your position, I would hold to it too. The fact is, I'm not aware of any such evidence. However, I am aware of the manner in which preterists would interpret several biblical texts and how this leads them to their position. Needless to say I disagree with such interpretations.

I'm sorry I make you suspicious, but my disagreement is not based on any sinister motives. I am not a preterist for the same reason I am not a Calvinist or a Universalist - I just don't think the Bible teaches it, though I'm always open to be shown otherwise. This might sound wierd, but I'd be a Muslim or a Pantheist if someone could convince me that the Bible teaches such things!
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PostPosted: Fri Jan 12, 2007 1:10 pm    Post subject: Reply with quote

Maybe you can address this one...

I John 2:15-18--John said the world was passing away and "it is the last hour."

If the "Last Days," leading up to that point had lasted about 40 years, then how can the last hour of those last days last 50 times longer than the last days themselves?

Do you have any scriptures that say that "Two millenia is like an hour and an hour is like two millenia?" ^----Sorry, couldn't resist...this is just for humor Laughing ----^

Ely wrote:
psychohmike wrote:
Sorry but I am a little suspicious when someone wants to consider a text outside of it's context. The new testament authors were all writing about the same things. Obviously you see the weight of the evidence in the new testament as a whole. On the other hand if you have some evidence that the authors were all speaking of different things, I would be more than happy to listen.

NB - If I was aware of an overhwelming or even strong biblical evidence for your position, I would hold to it too. The fact is, I'm not aware of any such evidence. However, I am aware of the manner in which preterists would interpret several biblical texts and how this leads them to their position. Needless to say I disagree with such interpretations.

I'm sorry I make you suspicious, but my disagreement is not based on any sinister motives. I am not a preterist for the same reason I am not a Calvinist or a Universalist - I just don't think the Bible teaches it, though I'm always open to be shown otherwise. This might sound wierd, but I'd be a Muslim or a Pantheist if someone could convince me that the Bible teaches such things!

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Ely



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PostPosted: Fri Jan 12, 2007 2:04 pm    Post subject: Reply with quote

psychohmike wrote:
Maybe you can address this one...

I John 2:15-18--John said the world was passing away and "it is the last hour."

If the "Last Days," leading up to that point had lasted about 40 years, then how can the last hour of those last days last 50 times longer than the last days themselves?

Do you have any scriptures that say that "Two millenia is like an hour and an hour is like two millenia?" ^----Sorry, couldn't resist...this is just for humor Laughing ----^
Good one!

So, your main point appears to be that the term "hour" here must be referring to an empirically shorter length of time than "days." This is based on the fact that in normal usage, an hour is clearly shorter than a day. But we need to find out what the actual Greek word John used in the passage in quesiton. We then need to find out the range of meanings thus word carries in the NT. Hopefully this will help us to understand the meaning in 1 John 2:18. So, here's what I did:

First, I went to blueletterbible.org (I can't stop singing the praises of this superb site - well worth getting used to) and found the verse. Then, I used the online tools to establish the Greek word used ("hora" - Strong's # 5610). Then, I searched this word and found that it is used 108 times in the NT. ON the vast majority of times it is translated as day. However, in the KJV (the default version of blueletterbible), the word is translated 11 times as "time", including twice in the verse in question:

18 Little children, it is the last time: and as ye have heard that antichrist shall come, even now are there many antichrists; whereby we know that it is the last time. 1 John 2

The next step is to see if John uses the term "day" or "days" in the epistle. This might give us some idea of how he understood the "last hora." And after a similar search on blueletterbible.org, I found that John uses the term "day" (Greek: "hemera") once in the same epistle:

17 Herein is our love made perfect, that we may have boldness in the day of judgment: because as he is, so are we in this world. 1 John 4

Notice, John believed that the day of judgement had not yet come. It was yet a future thing. Now, how could "the day of judgement" not have occured when "the last hour" had already come?

We have at leat two options here, we can either say:

1. The day of judgment was to occur after the last hour

or

2. The term "the last hour" was not meant to be taken in such a rigid/literal manner.

I think option 2 is the best option.

So what did John mean by saying that it was the last hour? I know this won't impress you, but I belive he was reflecting his conviction that he was near the end of the age. Several times in the NT, we see times where the apostles expected Jesus Christ to return and the ressurection/rapture to occur in their lifetime. However, I believe they were mistaken in this respect because Jesus Christ didn't return and the resurrection/ rapture did not occur in their generation.

Of course, this is based on a particular understanding of the return of return of Jesus Christ and the resurrection/rapture. But that's a whole 'nother issue that we have already discussed elsewhere.
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psychohmike



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PostPosted: Fri Jan 12, 2007 2:16 pm    Post subject: Reply with quote

So did the Spirit lead them in all truth or not?

Ely wrote:
psychohmike wrote:
Maybe you can address this one...

I John 2:15-18--John said the world was passing away and "it is the last hour."

If the "Last Days," leading up to that point had lasted about 40 years, then how can the last hour of those last days last 50 times longer than the last days themselves?

Do you have any scriptures that say that "Two millenia is like an hour and an hour is like two millenia?" ^----Sorry, couldn't resist...this is just for humor Laughing ----^
Good one!

So, your main point appears to be that the term "hour" here must be referring to an empirically shorter length of time than "days." This is based on the fact that in normal usage, an hour is clearly shorter than a day. But we need to find out what the actual Greek word John used in the passage in quesiton. We then need to find out the range of meanings thus word carries in the NT. Hopefully this will help us to understand the meaning in 1 John 2:18. So, here's what I did:

First, I went to blueletterbible.org (I can't stop singing the praises of this superb site - well worth getting used to) and found the verse. Then, I used the online tools to establish the Greek word used ("hora" - Strong's # 5610). Then, I searched this word and found that it is used 108 times in the NT. ON the vast majority of times it is translated as day. However, in the KJV (the default version of blueletterbible), the word is translated 11 times as "time", including twice in the verse in question:

18 Little children, it is the last time: and as ye have heard that antichrist shall come, even now are there many antichrists; whereby we know that it is the last time. 1 John 2

The next step is to see if John uses the term "day" or "days" in the epistle. This might give us some idea of how he understood the "last hora." And after a similar search on blueletterbible.org, I found that John uses the term "day" (Greek: "hemera") once in the same epistle:

17 Herein is our love made perfect, that we may have boldness in the day of judgment: because as he is, so are we in this world. 1 John 4

Notice, John believed that the day of judgement had not yet come. It was yet a future thing. Now, how could "the day of judgement" not have occured when "the last hour" had already come?

We have at leat two options here, we can either say:

1. The day of judgment was to occur after the last hour

or

2. The term "the last hour" was not meant to be taken in such a rigid/literal manner.

I think option 2 is the best option.

So what did John mean by saying that it was the last hour? I know this won't impress you, but I belive he was reflecting his conviction that he was near the end of the age. Several times in the NT, we see times where the apostles expected Jesus Christ to return and the ressurection/rapture to occur in their lifetime. However, I believe they were mistaken in this respect because Jesus Christ didn't return and the resurrection/ rapture did not occur in their generation.

Of course, this is based on a particular understanding of the return of return of Jesus Christ and the resurrection/rapture. But that's a whole 'nother issue that we have already discussed elsewhere.

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Ely



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PostPosted: Fri Jan 12, 2007 2:49 pm    Post subject: Reply with quote

Okay, well let's try it your way, did "the last hour" begin before the "day of judgment"?
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PostPosted: Fri Jan 12, 2007 4:25 pm    Post subject: Reply with quote

I'll gladly wait for your answer. It was a time indicator. Salvation was nearer to them than when they first believed. I think I can safely say that the last days began at the earthly ministry of Jesus. The author of Hebrews said, "God, who at various times and in various ways spoke in time past to the fathers by the prophets, has in these last days spoken to us by His Son"

and

1 Cor 10:11 Now all these things happened to them as examples, and they were written for our admonition, upon whom the ends of the ages have come.

and

Hebrews 9:26 He then would have had to suffer often since the foundation of the world; but now, once at the end of the ages, He has appeared to put away sin by the sacrifice of Himself.

When John wrote that it was the last hour, he was simply saying that we can't get much closer.

Now...If you feel comfortable saying that every one of the NT authors was mistaken. You go right ahead. So much for inspiration.

mike

Ely wrote:
Okay, well let's try it your way, did "the last hour" begin before the "day of judgment"?

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Ely



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PostPosted: Fri Jan 12, 2007 4:43 pm    Post subject: Reply with quote

Quote:
When John wrote that it was the last hour, he was simply saying that we can't get much closer.

Fine, we basically agree here, so the real issue is whether the doctrine of inspiraiton allows the writers of Scripture to hold eroneous beliefs. I'm going to start another thread on this very issue as I think it's a good 'un.

Shalom

NB: Therr it is;
http://www.wvss.com/forumc/viewtopic.php?t=1494
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