Speaking in Tongues
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TK



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PostPosted: Thu Sep 28, 2006 2:43 pm    Post subject: Reply with quote

allyn-- i agree-

it's kind of like the stock market-- there are ups and downs but generally(hopefully) over time it keeps going up.

TK
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Christopher



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PostPosted: Thu Sep 28, 2006 5:39 pm    Post subject: Reply with quote

Allyn wrote:

Quote:
It is difficult for me simply to say that we will get closer to this ideal, at least so it seems in my own life. I say this because no matter how I try it seems I take one step forward and two steps back. Is this the way others of you feel as well?


I'm sure we all have our mountain-top and valley experiences in our walk, but I was mainly referring to the church as a whole. Individual Christians will have a wide range of satisfaction in their personal holiness, but the church as a whole I think is actually getting gradually more mature if you can believe that.

(The fact that we don't kill each other anymore over theological disagreements is a great step in that direction). Wink
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Homer



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PostPosted: Mon Oct 02, 2006 8:57 pm    Post subject: Reply with quote

Perhaps not many saw this article (the link posted some time back by Mattrose has been moved). It is an excellent presentation of the cessationist view of tongues:

http://www.preteristsite.com/docs/peoplestongues.html

It would be interesting to see how charismatics refute what Peoples presents in this article.

I have long wondered how charismatics can prove biblically that there were "tongues" other than existant languages (as on the day of pentecost) in any of the occurances in the bible.
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TK



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PostPosted: Tue Oct 03, 2006 7:13 am    Post subject: Reply with quote

homer wrote:

Quote:
I have long wondered how charismatics can prove biblically that there were "tongues" other than existant languages (as on the day of pentecost) in any of the occurances in the bible.


i know what you are saying, Homer. the problem is that there are very Godly men (like Steve G) and a good friend of mine who say they will sometimes pray in tongues, and this is not likely an actual language. therefore, we have the option of stating that either people like Steve and my friend are 1) pretending 2) mistaken 3) lying 4) telling the truth. i cannot hold that #s 1-3 are true. so if they are telling the truth, then is this not proof that the gift is for today? i know it may not be "legal" proof, but i suppose it is good enough for me.

TK
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Homer



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PostPosted: Tue Oct 03, 2006 9:24 am    Post subject: Reply with quote

TK,

I'm curious whether you read the article and any comments you, or others, may have on it.

Quote:
we have the option of stating that either people like Steve and my friend are 1) pretending 2) mistaken 3) lying 4) telling the truth. i cannot hold that #s 1-3 are true. so if they are telling the truth, then is this not proof that the gift is for today?


No, you still have option #2. Good people can be sincerely mistaken. But Pentecostals admit that all sorts of non-christians speak in tongues and explain this is a suppressed gift that all people have. So where are we?

In discussing this issue, the cessationist (semi-cessationist in my case, I believe miracles still occur Smile ) is at somewhat of a handicap epistemologically in that he is limited to the revelation of scripture and reason while the continuationist has esoteric experience which, as has been charged of the holiness movement in general, may be placed on equal par with scripture, and will necessarily affect the exegesis of relevant text.

In the case of miracles, it is difficult to know for sure if a miracle has occured in many cases. A person our church prayed for was, we believe, miraculously healed of colon cancer prior to the planned surgery, but according to medical literature I have read approximately 1% of cancers spontaneously dissapear. I had, or may still have, a mild case of cutaneous T-cell lymphoma, which is generally considered incurable by any means. I have treated it medically and symtoms have been gone for over one year. The doctor said in some mild cases the immune system overcomes the disease. Was it a miracle or natural healing? Who can say? Was it an answer to prayer? Definately!
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TK



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PostPosted: Tue Oct 03, 2006 11:33 am    Post subject: Reply with quote

Hey Homer--

first to clarify-- i meant that to me, options 1 THROUGH 3 above seem not to be options, applied to people I know and trust.

I read the article, and of course it is well-written and makes sense. i have also read "charismatic chaos" by John MacArthur and he similarly believes that tongues have ceased.

But neither writer attempts to explain what sincere, mature Christians are "doing" when they claim to speak in a tongue. You indicated that my #2 option above (that they are mistaken) is a possibility. But how can this be? from what i have know of other people's experience, praying in tongues is something of a spontaneous occurrence. if they are mistaken, what are they mistaken about? that they are actually speaking in a tongue, or that it is from the HS? If the latter, then I would be required to believe that they are making it up (perhaps unintentionally) in their mind and perceive it to be from the HS. i suppose this is possible, but who am I to say?

believe me , i know there are people that make it up and pretend. but i also believe that there are those who do not.

this is why this topic is so frustrating for me. i just cant believe EVERYBODY who claims to speak in a tongue is simply not doing so.

TK
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Seth



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PostPosted: Tue Oct 03, 2006 11:50 am    Post subject: Reply with quote

To me, it boils down to one question...who's moving my lips? So far, God hasn't seen fit to move them for me. Therefore, I don't speak in tongues. I ask for the Gift every day if God wants it for me. From the absence of its occurrence, I conclude that either a.) God doesn't want me to have it, or b.) I don't have the faith/I'm not ready for it.

Here's another one, and maybe this is for a different Topic: is there a difference between the Gift of Tongues at Pentecost different from the Gift of Tongues in the teaching of Paul?

My view...no. Some say that at Pentecost, the apostles were speaking human languages, but I don't see that, since everybody was hearing them in their own language. I think there was a dual gift that day: the gift of speaking in tongues for the Apostles, and the gift of interpretation in the ears of the hearers. I haven't heard this from anybody, so I could be just dead wrong here...
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TK



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PostPosted: Tue Oct 03, 2006 12:14 pm    Post subject: Reply with quote

hi seth- long time no see--

i have considered your interpretation of pentecost also-- but this view has been shot down by those who know greek and the like. i think Steve G stated that he felt this interpretation was not correct, i.e. that the apostles were speaking in an unknown language and the hearers heard it in THEIR language. i think he said the greek requires that the speakers were actually speaking the language of the hearers. i think the article homer cites above discusses this.

i dont read greek so i dont know.

TK
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Seth



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PostPosted: Tue Oct 03, 2006 12:40 pm    Post subject: Reply with quote

If that's the case, and I'm no Greek scholar either, it invites the question (doesn't beg it...thanks Steve) of:

"What exactly is the gift of tongues and interpretation in 1 Corinthians 14?"

BTW, about "Begging the Question", see below:

http://www.chron.com/content/chronicle/editorial/98/07/26/7-26-safire.0-0.html
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Homer



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PostPosted: Tue Oct 03, 2006 8:36 pm    Post subject: Reply with quote

Quote:
"What exactly is the gift of tongues and interpretation in 1 Corinthians 14?"


There seems to be no question the "tongues" spoken on the Day of Pentecost were extant languages. What of those we read about in 1 Corinthians? Most charismatics claim those at Corinth were of a different kind, a heavenly language or prayer language. What evidence is there in the text that would establish this? The only thing I see in their favor might be when Paul said, 13:1, "Though I speak with the tongues of men and angels...". "Though" (Greek ean: "even if") indicates a hypothetical case as the rest of vs. 1-3, which offers little support for the charismatic claim. Other references in Paul's discussion, 14:10-11 and especially 14:21 refer obviously to actual human language. I can see nothing that could be considered proof that the "tongues spoken at Corinth were of a different specie than those at Pentecost.

Quote:
But neither writer attempts to explain what sincere, mature Christians are "doing" when they claim to speak in a tongue. You indicated that my #2 option above (that they are mistaken) is a possibility. But how can this be? from what i have know of other people's experience, praying in tongues is something of a spontaneous occurrence. if they are mistaken, what are they mistaken about? that they are actually speaking in a tongue, or that it is from the HS? If the latter, then I would be required to believe that they are making it up (perhaps unintentionally) in their mind and perceive it to be from the HS. i suppose this is possible, but who am I to say?


Perhaps they are not mistaken but doing something else. Pentecostal Theologians may provide the answer.

From "Pentecostalism", Walter Hollenweger:

"The function of speaking in tongues is similar to that of dreaming, singing or dancing, or even being silent. It is as Spittler says "a form of right hemisphere speech.' Speaking in tongues is non-cognitive, but meaningfull nevertheless. It is a means of communicating without grammatical sentences, a kind of atmospheric communication."

Hollenweger goes on to compare tongues to the poems of the Dadaists: "The poems of the Dadaists (rendered simultaneously in several languages) appeal directly to the senses. They lack semantic meaning. The vocals and the sounds are in themselves the message. Every listener makes his or her own interpretation, similar to speaking in tongues.

(all italics mine)

You can see why they are at pains to establish that the tongues at Corinth were not the kind that occured at Pentecost.

I have tried to read and understand both sides of the issue. The Pentecostals at one time touted a book "What Meaneth This?" by Carl Brumbeck as the great apologetic for their position. I finally was able to obtain a copy and found his arguments so unimpressive I didn't finish it.
It seems to me that in the discussion of tongues personal experience is repeatedly cited as irrefutable proof, which necessarily limits the discusion.
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Sean



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PostPosted: Wed Oct 04, 2006 12:33 am    Post subject: Reply with quote

Homer wrote:
TK,

I'm curious whether you read the article and any comments you, or others, may have on it.


I read the article all the way through. I thought it was pretty good overall. However I think one of the most important passages: 1 Cor 13:8-11 was not explained very well from a cessationist perspective.

I also think Mark 16:17 could have been covered and explained better from a cessationist perspective.

While I don't speak in tongues but would like to, I think I'm in as close to "neutral" as I could hope for on this issue. Having considered the topic carefully even before reading this article, I still don't know 100% what to make of the biblical case either way. I do lean to tongues being a sign still for today as per my leanings in interpretation. So because of that I feel tongues is still a function of the Holy Spirit today.

Things like prophecy can be tested. Unfortunately, tongues can't be so easily tested. One thing I have noticed is that when people were filled with the Holy Spirit and spoke with tongues, they apparently didn't know anything about it ahead of time. It's something that just happened. In other words, they didn't have to mimic someone else, etc. It was spontanious
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Sean



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PostPosted: Wed Oct 04, 2006 12:33 am    Post subject: Reply with quote

duplicate post. Idea
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Last edited by Sean on Thu Oct 05, 2006 9:54 pm; edited 1 time in total
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TK



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PostPosted: Wed Oct 04, 2006 3:51 am    Post subject: Reply with quote

Sean wrote:

Quote:
While I don't speak in tongues but would like to, I think I'm in as close to "neutral" as I could hope for on this issue.


So am I. and like you, Sean, i would also like to receive this gift. But i am afraid that perhaps "neutrality" is a hindrance to receiving the gift. in other words, maybe you really have to believe it really have to want it.. i seem to always have a little bit of doubt in the back of my mind-- particularly as to, as Seth noted above, "who is moving my lips?" i am trying to disable this doubt and also asking God to remove it. I don't want to resign myself to the fact that this may not be meant for me, although this may actually be the case.

TK
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Homer



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PostPosted: Wed Oct 04, 2006 8:13 am    Post subject: Reply with quote

TK,

You said:
Quote:
i would also like to receive this gift. But i am afraid that perhaps "neutrality" is a hindrance to receiving the gift. in other words, maybe you really have to believe it really have to want it.. i seem to always have a little bit of doubt in the back of my mind


And Sean said:
Quote:
One thing I have noticed is that when people were filled with the Holy Spirit and spoke with tongues, they apparently didn't know anything about it ahead of time. It's something that just happened.


As Sean indicates, I don't think you can find any evidence in the narratives in Acts that anyone, including the Apostles at Pentecost, had any belief in, or even knew of, a gift of tongues before they spoke in tongues.

As the leading Pentecostals admit, they can't say whether the tongues they speak are as those at Corinth or whether they have any meaningful content at all. How would you know if you spoke in a tongue or an imitation? It seems the strongest support is experimental.
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TK



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PostPosted: Wed Oct 04, 2006 9:16 am    Post subject: Reply with quote

homer wrote:

Quote:
As Sean indicates, I don't think you can find any evidence in the narratives in Acts that anyone, including the Apostles at Pentecost, had any belief in, or even knew of, a gift of tongues before they spoke in tongues.


is the implication then that in order for tongues to be valid, they must be spoken by someone who doesnt know what they are? if this is true, then it would seem to favor non-charismatics as the likely tongue-speakers, when just the opposite is the case.

when i noted above that i seem to have this lingering doubt, it is because of what you said Homer,--how can i know for sure that if i ever do speak in tongue, that it's of the HS? but my fear is that this lingering doubt may prevent the legitimate gift being granted.

TK
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