The woman of Revelation chapter 12

 
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Roger



Joined: 17 Aug 2005
Posts: 125
Location: Albany, Oregon

PostPosted: Mon Aug 22, 2005 7:41 pm    Post subject: The woman of Revelation chapter 12 Reply with quote

I would like to ask all the members of this forum to give their views on the woman in Revelation chapter 12. She is clothed with the sun, the moon is under her feet, and on her head is a crown of twelve stars. She is travailing in birth and brings forth a manchild who is to rule all the nations. There is also a great red dragon before her that wants to devour her child. After her child is born the woman fled into the wilderness where she has a place prepared by God and where she is nourished for a thousand two hundred and sixty days. Who is this woman ?
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Some Partial-Pret guy



Joined: 08 Jul 2005
Posts: 17

PostPosted: Mon Aug 22, 2005 10:57 pm    Post subject: Reply with quote

Man, have you came to the right place.
Steve's "da-bomb" when it comes to laying this one out.

Here's Rev 12-13 in MP3 format :
http://www.thenarrowpath.com/mp3s/bible/revelation/rev11.mp3

Yeah I know it says rev11, but it covers 12-13.
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Roger



Joined: 17 Aug 2005
Posts: 125
Location: Albany, Oregon

PostPosted: Wed Aug 24, 2005 4:13 am    Post subject: Reply with quote

Thank you Partial-Preterist Guy for directing me to Steve's message on this. I did listen to it. As of this time I am not a preterist but am open to hear anything on these matters and have my views adjusted.

Roger
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Roger



Joined: 17 Aug 2005
Posts: 125
Location: Albany, Oregon

PostPosted: Thu Aug 25, 2005 5:02 am    Post subject: Reply with quote

This is a brief view of what I believe this woman is. I believe the woman of Revelation 12 represents all of God's people from the beginning and includes you and me. The crown of twelve stars represent the patriarcs ( Abrabraham, Isaac,Jacob,etc.) . Joseph had a dream about the sun,moon and twelve stars. This represents the people of God at that time.

The moon is under the womans feet. The moon has no light in itself but is only a reflection of the light from the sun. This represents all those under the law before the coming of Christ. Christ is the fullfillment and reality of all that the law spoke of. The fact that the moon is under her feet shows us that the time of the law is over.

She is clothed with the sun. The sun is Christ himself. He is the light. The woman being clothed with the sun represents all of God's people that have come to Him in Christ.

At the end of the book of Revelation John is told to "come here and I will show you the bride, the lambs wife". And he was shown the holy city New Jerusalem. Just as the New Jerusalem is the bride, the lambs wife, including all of God's people, so too this woman in Revelation 12 is inclusive of all of God's people from the beginning of time to the end.

This is what I believe the woman in Revelation 12 is. I welcome you all to pick me apart . If I am wrong please adjust me because I desire to follow the truth of the word.

God bless you all,

Roger
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Steve



Joined: 17 Feb 2004
Posts: 1179
Location: Santa Cruz, CA

PostPosted: Thu Aug 25, 2005 6:41 am    Post subject: Reply with quote

Your view has some areas of agreement with mine, except that I consider the woman to be the people of God (the Jewish remnant) prior to Christ only. My reasons for this are:

1. The imagery of the twelve stars, as you have noted, harks back to Joseph's dream and is identified with the family of Israel (Gen.37:9f). The moon and the sun are also found in that dream, in the same connection. While your points about the law being passe and Christ being the light of the world (like the sun) are theologically correct (and we are even said to be "clothed" with Christ as the woman is clothed with the sun), yet the sun and the moon do not bear this particular meaning in Joseph's dream;

2. The woman is pregnant and gives birth to a child, who seems to be Christ (Rev.12:5). This would fit the identity of the woman as the Jewish remnant, prior to Christ's time, since Christ came into the world through that agency. Christians since that time do not give birth to Christ in any obvious sense;

3. The woman is said to have additional children, besides the first Child (Rev.12:17). They are said to be those "who keep the commandments of God and who have the testimony of Jesus." Thus, the additional children of the woman would seem to be the (primarily Gentile) Christians, or the church...coming into being after the ascension of Christ. If the offspring of the woman represents the church, as I believe is the case, this renders less likely the possibility that the imagery of the woman herself would also include the church;

4. The flight of the woman into the wilderness after the ascension of her male Child (Christ) would readily parallel the historical flight of the Judean Christians (the Jewish remnant) into Transjordan in order to escape the holocaust of AD 70. It does not have any obvious parallel to our own experience.

Such are my thoughts about this passage. I appreciate your sharing yours.
_________________
In Jesus,
Steve
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Roger



Joined: 17 Aug 2005
Posts: 125
Location: Albany, Oregon

PostPosted: Thu Aug 25, 2005 2:44 pm    Post subject: Reply with quote

Thank you Steve for your response. At a future time I would like to respond more but for now I would like to comment on your statement that the Jewish remnant brought forth Christ and that this would seem to indicate that the woman is the Jewish believers.

I believe the manchild mentioned in 12:5 is more then just Christ himself although He is certainly included here. It is said in this verse that the man child will rule the nations with a rod of iron. Jesus promised the overcomers in the church in Thyatira that they would also rule the nations with a rod of iron (Rev.2:26-27). The manchild is a corporate entity just as the woman is. The manchild is Christ and all the overcoming believers who will together rule the nations with a rod of iron. Therefore to me the woman need not be the Jewish believers only.

By the way, I did listen to your message on this point and will listen to it again because I want to be absolutely clear about what you are saying.

God bless you,

Roger
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Roger



Joined: 17 Aug 2005
Posts: 125
Location: Albany, Oregon

PostPosted: Sat Aug 27, 2005 5:48 am    Post subject: Reply with quote

Steve, just another short reply to your statement that christians do not give birth to Christ in any obvious way. Paul said in Galations 4:19 "My little children, for whom I labor in birth again until Christ is formed in you,". I agree that we are not giving birth to a physical Christ but Paul certainly meant something here which seems to disagree with your statement.

Roger
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sab



Joined: 15 May 2006
Posts: 9

PostPosted: Mon May 15, 2006 5:36 pm    Post subject: Reply with quote

I believe the woman to be Israel. The symbols of the sun and moon and 12 stars are similar to Genesis 37.

The woman gave birth to the male who was to rule the nations. That is Christ. There are many references in the OT about Israel in travail. I find it difficult to see the woman as the church simply because the church didn't give birth to Christ.

Satan went after the woman. This has been the history of Israel/The Jews to our time and still continues. In the Middle Ages they were accused of poisoning wells and murdering Christians (the accuser) and in WW2 Hitler tried to annihilate them. I believe the flood that came out of the dragon's mouth is a reference to modern Antisemitism - in particular a poisonous lie called "The Protocols of the Elders of Zion" which influenced the pogroms in Russia and the Holocaust and now underlies the ideology of groups such as Hamas who have vowed to destroy Israel.

The woman escaped from the 7-headed dragon for 1260 days. After AD 70 the Jews found refuge in Babylon. There is a verse in Micah (I think) which says they would find refuge in Babylon. Persecution started in Europe in earnest in the 13th century.

The woman was given wings to fly to her place - Israel= Modern Zionism.

What is exciting is that the remnant of the woman's seed have the testimony of Jesus and that brings us to the recent messianic movement among the Jews and ultimately to Armageddon.

In Rev 16:13 the evil spirits bring the world to Armageddon. Zech 14 tells us that will be when the nations attack Jerusalem. What would inspire them to do that? Antisemitism, hatred for God's people.
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STEVE7150



Joined: 19 Jun 2005
Posts: 894

PostPosted: Sat May 20, 2006 5:05 am    Post subject: Reply with quote

I believe the woman to be Israel. The symbols of the sun and moon and 12 stars are similar to Genesis 37.

The woman gave birth to the male who was to rule the nations. That is Christ. There are many references in the OT about Israel in travail. I find it difficult to see the woman as the church simply because the church didn't give birth to Christ.

Satan went after the woman. This has been the history of Israel/The Jews
to our time and still continues. In the Middle Ages they

Sab, I agree and i think these verses explain some of the apparent atrocities Israel was forced to commit in the OT where they had to wipe out the Mideonites and Cannanites because it was really the "dragon" or Satan who tried to destroy Israel (the women)through these evil cultures because she was to give birth to Christ. Then the women (Israel) fled into the wilderness (70AD) for 1260 days (gospel age) but i believe has returned home for the end of age events.
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