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Allyn



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PostPosted: Thu Feb 28, 2008 1:28 pm    Post subject: Tuesday Feb 26, 2008 Reply with quote

As I was listening to the recorded version of Tuesday's call in show I was struck by the first callers question concerning suicide. Where as I generally agree with Steve's answer a question came to mind when Steve spoke of suicide as a form of murder possibly. The question I thought of is in relation to this when Jesus said to pluck out your eye if it offends you and cut off your finger if it offends you. Not really understanding this concept completely (and remembering it was discussed many months ago on another thread) it begs the question that if your body offends you would this same principal apply? Now, I am not so silly that I would even cut my finger off let alone take my own life, but how do we reconcile these examples? Can one justifiably cut off enough of your body even unto death?
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Paidion



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PostPosted: Thu Feb 28, 2008 7:04 pm    Post subject: Reply with quote

Not that this contribues much to your topic, Allyn, but it brought back a memory.

When I was a little boy, my mother and sister stressed what a wonderful place heaven is, and the importance of getting to heaven after death. So I suggested that we kill ourselves so that we could get there sooner. But my sister said that if we killed ourselves, we wouldn't be allowed in.
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Allyn



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PostPosted: Fri Feb 29, 2008 3:32 am    Post subject: Reply with quote

Someone made a good point (maybe on that Tuesday show) that we all die having committed one last sin. So I guess, is one sin worse than another? Of course I am not trying to justify any sin, but I do have compassion for the individual who takes his own life in that it must have been a terrible fight in his life to have finally come to that conclusion. Only God knows the heart of anyone.

So back to the OP, is Jesus saying that if a part of our body offends us we should remove that part even unto death?
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Paidion



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PostPosted: Fri Feb 29, 2008 3:16 pm    Post subject: Reply with quote

Quote:
So I guess, is one sin worse than another?


Sorry to sidetrack your thread once again, but I just had to respond to the above quote.

There's no doubt in my mind that some sins are worse than others. So many people say they are all equally evil. I know, Allyn, that you are not trying to lessen the seriousness of sin by this suggestion. However, the effect of thinking of them as equally wrong may lead to thoughts such as, "I have been lying, and gossiping. So I might as well commit adultery with the woman who attracts me, and kill her husband while I'm at it. After all, those sins are no worse than any other."

But the fact that some sins are greater than others is indicated by our Lord Jesus himself:

...he who delivered me to you has the greater sin. John 19:11
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Allyn



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PostPosted: Fri Feb 29, 2008 4:09 pm    Post subject: Reply with quote

I guess my point in asking the question is that all sin results in physical death whether it be one or more. So if a person commits the sin of suicide then would that one sin cause a person to lose their salvation? I say this, of course, knowing our hope is in Christ and we are sinners though saved through Christ.

If a person commits suicide for any reason is that person any worse off in terms of salvation. I know that I cannot judge this but if there is a sin that Christ does not cover in our weakness (not counting the blaspheming of the Holy Spirit) then what is it? Is it suicide? Is suicide the blaspheming of the Holy Spirit? And again, is Jesus saying we should cut off our head if it turns in a lustful way, for example, which of course would result in physical death?

Are any of you following me on this? Maybe this is way too silly to contemplate.
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Paidion



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PostPosted: Fri Feb 29, 2008 5:57 pm    Post subject: Reply with quote

The view which I have heard expressed is that a person is in trouble if there is sin in his life of which he has not repented.

In the case of all other sins, there is usually time to repent. With the act of "successful" suicide, there isn't. After committing this sin, the next moment of awareness for that person is the judgment.
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Allyn



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PostPosted: Fri Feb 29, 2008 6:53 pm    Post subject: Reply with quote

And in your opinion the judgement for that person is what?
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Paidion



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PostPosted: Fri Feb 29, 2008 8:25 pm    Post subject: Reply with quote

Perhaps you mean "sentence". I think every non-repentant person will be sentenced for correction in Gehenna, the Lake of Fire.
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Allyn



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PostPosted: Sat Mar 01, 2008 3:39 am    Post subject: Reply with quote

But you wrote:
The view which I have heard expressed is that a person is in trouble if there is sin in his life of which he has not repented.

In the case of all other sins, there is usually time to repent. With the act of "successful" suicide, there isn't. After committing this sin, the next moment of awareness for that person is the judgment.


But now you are calling it a "sentence". Isn't it true that in Christ there is no condemnation? Why then wouldn't the sentence be eternal life in Him as well?
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Paidion



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PostPosted: Sat Mar 01, 2008 8:33 am    Post subject: Reply with quote

Quote:
Isn't it true that in Christ there is no condemnation? Why then wouldn't the sentence be eternal life in Him as well?


Yes, it is true. My question to you is, "Are those who sin without repentance 'in Christ'?"

I am not suggesting that a disciple jumps in and out of Christ every time he sins and repents. If he is on the road to completion, he stays on the road. But if he lives in sin without repentance, then he has gotten off the road.

I am not sure about your example of the disciple who commits suicide, but I suspect that prior to the suicide his life was not right before God. For a person trusting completely in God would not commit suicide no matter what the external pressures. Thus it seems likely that one who commits suicide has gotten off the road which leads to life for a time prior to the suicidal act. The act itself is evidence that he had not repented of that condition.
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Allyn



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PostPosted: Sat Mar 01, 2008 10:10 am    Post subject: Reply with quote

Paidion wrote:
Quote:
Isn't it true that in Christ there is no condemnation? Why then wouldn't the sentence be eternal life in Him as well?


Yes, it is true. My question to you is, "Are those who sin without repentance 'in Christ'?"

I am not suggesting that a disciple jumps in and out of Christ every time he sins and repents. If he is on the road to completion, he stays on the road. But if he lives in sin without repentance, then he has gotten off the road.

I am not sure about your example of the disciple who commits suicide, but I suspect that prior to the suicide his life was not right before God. For a person trusting completely in God would not commit suicide no matter what the external pressures. Thus it seems likely that one who commits suicide has gotten off the road which leads to life for a time prior to the suicidal act. The act itself is evidence that he had not repented of that condition.


Repentance is of course required and I believe must follow immediately after belief on Christ. I believe we need to constantly repent of new sin in our life and ask forgiveness for such sins if we are aware of them. Likewise we should have buried in baptism the old man of sin and strive to live according to Christ as we are taught, we are not to abide in sin.

Personally I believe it possible that not all who commit suicide are lost. There are just too many circumstances probable that leads me to this opinion.
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Allyn



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PostPosted: Sat Mar 01, 2008 10:11 am    Post subject: Reply with quote

Thank you Sue. I appreciate your comments as well.
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