Original sin
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Do you believe that we were born with original sin?
Yes
23%
 23%  [ 3 ]
No
76%
 76%  [ 10 ]
Total Votes : 13

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PAULESPINO



Joined: 18 Jul 2006
Posts: 13

PostPosted: Tue Feb 05, 2008 7:45 am    Post subject: Reply with quote

Hi Paidion,

I will change my position regarding inheriting sin. I believe that we don't inherit sin as was mentioned in the following:

Ezekiel 18:20
20 The soul who sins shall die. The son shall not bear the guilt of the father, nor the father bear the guilt of the son. The righteousness of the righteous shall be upon himself, wand the wickedness of the wicked shall be upon himself.
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Thomas



Joined: 02 Mar 2006
Posts: 48
Location: Panama

PostPosted: Tue Feb 05, 2008 7:51 am    Post subject: Reply with quote

Paul:

Original sin does not imply guilt. The infant has done nothing and is innocent. Original sin is a condition.

Adam was kicked out of the Garden where he once walked with God. We are all , as a result , also born outside the Garden and seperated from God.

Thomas
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PAULESPINO



Joined: 18 Jul 2006
Posts: 13

PostPosted: Tue Feb 05, 2008 8:19 am    Post subject: Reply with quote

Hi Thomas,

We are not responsible for our father's sin.
Ezekie 18:20 
The soul who sins shall die. The son shall not bear the guilt of the father, nor the father bear the guilt of the son. The righteousness of the righteous shall be upon himself, wand the wickedness of the wicked shall be upon himself.

The reason Adam and Eve was removed from the garden was because of the following verse.

Genesis 3:22
22 Then the Lord God said, Behold, the man has become like one of Us, to know good and evil. And now, lest he put out his hand and take also of the tree of life, and eat, and live forever.

Could you please briefly explain what you meant by Saying that "Original sin is a condition".
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Paidion



Joined: 25 Jul 2005
Posts: 944
Location: Chapple, Ontario

PostPosted: Tue Feb 05, 2008 8:49 am    Post subject: Reply with quote

Paul, you wrote:
I will change my position regarding inheriting sin. I believe that we don't inherit sin as was mentioned in the following...


Neither of us believes we inherit sin. But I do believe we inherit a sinful nature, that is, a nature which has a predilection to sin. Do you?
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Paidion
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"Not one soul will ever be redeemed from hell but by being saved from his sins, from the evil in him." --- George MacDonald
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Thomas



Joined: 02 Mar 2006
Posts: 48
Location: Panama

PostPosted: Tue Feb 05, 2008 9:30 am    Post subject: Reply with quote

Hola Paul:

Gen. 3 16-24 The "curse of Adam"

This is what is meant by "original sin" , we do not inherit the guilt but we do inherit the result of this first sin.

Quote:
We are not responsible for our father's sin.


No , of couse not. We are not being punished by this. It is a condition we must overcome , and Christ is the way. We are born seperated from God as a result of being born outside the Garden , and will never fully return to that state until our resurection , (Rev.21) when Christ promises to once again walk among us.

The most we can do is overcome the worst of this curse by belief and Baptism. I'm afraid we will always have to live by the sweat of our brow however.

Quote:
The reason Adam and Eve was removed from the garden was because of the following verse.


No , they were removed because of the eating of the fruit of the tree of knowledge. . They were removed lest they sin further and eat of the tree of life.

Thomas
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PAULESPINO



Joined: 18 Jul 2006
Posts: 13

PostPosted: Tue Feb 05, 2008 10:02 am    Post subject: Reply with quote

Thomas:

Quote:
This is what is meant by "original sin" , we do not inherit the guilt but we do inherit the result of this first sin.


Please be more specific. Which one did we inherit? Is it the original sin we inherit?

Paidion:
Quote:
Neither of us believes we inherit sin. But I do believe we inherit a sinful nature, that is, a nature which has a predilection to sin. Do you?
.

When you say we inherit the sinful nature. Does that makes us sinful?
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PAULESPINO



Joined: 18 Jul 2006
Posts: 13

PostPosted: Tue Feb 05, 2008 10:18 am    Post subject: Reply with quote

Hi Thomas,

By the way what was the result of the first sin?

Even the result of the first sin does not makes the babies sinful.
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Thomas



Joined: 02 Mar 2006
Posts: 48
Location: Panama

PostPosted: Tue Feb 05, 2008 12:08 pm    Post subject: Reply with quote

Hola Paul:

Quote:
By the way what was the result of the first sin?


Our seperation from God.



Quote:
Even the result of the first sin does not makes the babies sinful.


No , but it makes them incapable of not sinning.

Thomas
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Paidion



Joined: 25 Jul 2005
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Location: Chapple, Ontario

PostPosted: Tue Feb 05, 2008 3:59 pm    Post subject: Reply with quote

Quote:
When you say we inherit the sinful nature. Does that makes us sinful?


If a dog's nature is to bite, does that make him bite?

Our inheritance of a sinful nature doesn't "make" us sin. We sin by choice. Yet that nature makes it more likely that we will make that choice.

If a person gets addicted to some drug, the addiction doesn't "make" him continue to take the drug. He will take it or refrain from taking it by choice. But the addiction makes it more likely that he will choose to continue, rather than to refrain.
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Paidion
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PAULESPINO



Joined: 18 Jul 2006
Posts: 13

PostPosted: Wed Feb 06, 2008 6:15 am    Post subject: Reply with quote

Hi Paidion:

Quote:
Our inheritance of a sinful nature doesn't "make" us sin. We sin by choice. Yet that nature makes it more likely that we will make that choice


I think we are in agreement here if I understand you correctly.

So if you are saying that our inheritance of sinful nature does not make us sin and it is our choice that makes us sin then you are saying that babies are sinless from the time they were concieved ( zygote) and that they only sin when they decided to sin which is sometime later when they grow up.
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Paidion



Joined: 25 Jul 2005
Posts: 944
Location: Chapple, Ontario

PostPosted: Wed Feb 06, 2008 9:45 am    Post subject: Reply with quote

Paul wrote:
then you are saying that babies are sinless from the time they were concieved ( zygote) and that they only sin when they decided to sin which is sometime later when they grow up.


They are not conceived or born with inherited sin, but with a sinful nature.
But it seems obvious that they sin long before they grow up.
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Paidion
Avatar --- Age 45
"Not one soul will ever be redeemed from hell but by being saved from his sins, from the evil in him." --- George MacDonald
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PAULESPINO



Joined: 18 Jul 2006
Posts: 13

PostPosted: Wed Feb 06, 2008 3:20 pm    Post subject: Reply with quote

They are not conceived or born with inherited sin, but with a sinful nature.
But it seems obvious that they sin long before they grow up.


Padion, the bottom line is that you believe that babies are born sinless
and that they only sin when they commit the sin which we don't know when but one thing for sure all have sinned except babies.

This what I was trying to explain in my earlier post but I misunderstood the meaning of inheritance.

My conclusion is that all babies go to heaven because they are sinless.
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