The Church after constantine?

 
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Jim



Joined: 16 Mar 2006
Posts: 95
Location: Albany

PostPosted: Mon Sep 11, 2006 12:58 am    Post subject: The Church after constantine? Reply with quote

Has the true church been seperate from Rome/Orthodoxy since Constantine?

Revelations 12:1-17
1 And there appeared a great wonder in heaven; a woman clothed with the sun, and the moon under her feet, and upon her head a crown of twelve stars:

2 And she being with child cried, travailing in birth, and pained to be delivered.

3 And there appeared another wonder in heaven; and behold a great red dragon, having seven heads and ten horns, and seven crowns upon his heads.

4 And his tail drew the third part of the stars of heaven, and did cast them to the earth: and the dragon stood before the woman which was ready to be delivered, for to devour her child as soon as it was born.

5 And she brought forth a man child, who was to rule all nations with a rod of iron: and her child was caught up unto God, and to his throne.

6 And the woman fled into the wilderness, where she hath a place prepared of God, that they should feed her there a thousand two hundred and threescore days.

7 And there was war in heaven: Michael and his angels fought against the dragon; and the dragon fought and his angels,

8 And prevailed not; neither was their place found any more in heaven.

9 And the great dragon was cast out, that old serpent, called the Devil, and Satan, which deceiveth the whole world: he was cast out into the earth, and his angels were cast out with him.

10 And I heard a loud voice saying in heaven, Now is come salvation, and strength, and the kingdom of our God, and the power of his Christ: for the accuser of our brethren is cast down, which accused them before our God day and night.

11 And they overcame him by the blood of the Lamb, and by the word of their testimony; and they loved not their lives unto the death.

12 Therefore rejoice, ye heavens, and ye that dwell in them. Woe to the inhabiters of the earth and of the sea! for the devil is come down unto you, having great wrath, because he knoweth that he hath but a short time.

13 And when the dragon saw that he was cast unto the earth, he persecuted the woman which brought forth the man child.

14 And to the woman were given two wings of a great eagle, that she might fly into the wilderness, into her place, where she is nourished for a time, and times, and half a time, from the face of the serpent.

15 And the serpent cast out of his mouth water as a flood after the woman, that he might cause her to be carried away of the flood.

16 And the earth helped the woman, and the earth opened her mouth, and swallowed up the flood which the dragon cast out of his mouth.

17 And the dragon was wroth with the woman, and went to make war with the remnant (The church outside of RC/Eastern) of her seed, which keep the commandments of God, and have the testimony of Jesus Christ.

Did the church flee into piedmont then through out europe, constantly being chased by roman papacy?

If the Church did flee into the wilderness during Constantine in or about 272 AD - 337 AD, hide for 1236 years, Did they influence the reformation in 16th century?

Jim
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sab



Joined: 15 May 2006
Posts: 9

PostPosted: Fri Oct 26, 2007 2:59 am    Post subject: Reply with quote

some years ago I prayed about the identity of the woman in chapter 12 - the church I was in had it's own slant and it didn't fit so I asked the Lord. Through a series of events I bought a couple of books about Jews. After reading them I realised I knew very little about Jewish history so I opened my cd encyclopedia (Groliers 1995). To my amazement it fitted Rev chapter 12 perfectly.

The woman wore a crown of 12 stars - very similar to Genesis 37 where Joseph had a dream of the sun, moon and 11 stars bowing down to him - Jacob said the 11 stars were his brothers. The 12th star was Joseph.

The woman was in travail - a common symbol for Israel - for example Jer 13:21; Micah 4:10. (not just the church)

The woman gave birth to the child who was to rule the nations with a rod of iron - Christ - see Psalm 2. Jesus was born and lived as a Jew.

Satan tried to kill the child - Herod's massacre of the innocents. And again the crucifixion of Christ by the Romans.

Then the dragon went after the woman - The Jews had years of strife with the Roman Empire.

The woman fled to the wilderness - Micah 4:10 - to Babylon you shall go - there you shall be delivered. After Bar Kochba many Jews found refuge again in Babylon - the Roman sphere of influence did not go beyond the Euphrates. There they enjoyed peace and prosperity for centuries.

From about the 1200s the Jews began to be persecuted in Western Europe. In 1290 they were expelled from England. In 1391 thousands were massacred in Spain and others accepted baptism to save their lives. Then the Inquisition began in Spain to root out "marranos" - the Jewish converts to Christianity - these people were tortured and killed for professing faith in Christ. In 1492 they were expelled from Spain.

Beginning in 1096 whole communities of Jews were massacred across Europe by the Crusaders - accused of the murder of Christ.

We often think the brethren are Christian but Jesus spoke of those who did good or evil to his brethren and Paul spoke of Israel - his brethren after the flesh. The accuser of our Jewish brethren has been active - the father of lies. Accused of poisoning wells during the plague and of using the blood of Christian children in their passover meals was a pretext for more violence against the Jews - In fact most of th 'church's history has been a sordid litany of violence against the Jews. It went on for centuries. In the 1600s mobs in Ukraine (again so-called Christians) masscred hundreds of thousands. At this time Moscow considered herself "the third Rome" having taken the mantle of Constantinople after the Ottoman's sacked Constantinople in 1453. Finally to bolster the Tsar and find a convenient scapegoat the Russian secret police concocted a forgery blaming the Jews of a conspiracy to overthrow the cities of the world - the Protocols of the Elders of Zion. This fomented more strife for the Jews in Russia but it soon had a global audience. Hitler embraced it and it became the basis of Mein Kampf and his endeavour to kill all the Jews - the flood that came out of the dragon's mouth was and is Antisemitism.

The devil is not finished yet. Israel as a nation was born from that great tribulation the Jews went through - and now many Jews are discovering Jesus/Yeshua as their messiah. The remnant of the seed of the woman Israel are finding saving faith in Yeshua. The devil will again go to war with them. In Rev 16:13 these 3 evil spirits will bring the world to Armageddon. Antisemitism is at its highest level since World War 2 - spurred on by Islamic propaganda and Protocols of the Elders of Zion. This poisonous book is a best seller in Islamic countries.

Pray for the peace of Jerusalem and bless Israel. How many will find themselves on the wrong side in the coming crisis?

By the way - when the Lord showed me this was about the Jews I was in a church that cursed Israel. I'm outta there now. I got kicked out eventually over the identity of Israel.
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Paidion



Joined: 25 Jul 2005
Posts: 944
Location: Chapple, Ontario

PostPosted: Fri Oct 26, 2007 4:25 pm    Post subject: Reply with quote

Quote:
Has the true church been seperate from Rome/Orthodoxy since Constantine?


Being a futurist and a historic pre-millenialist, Jim, I cannot relate the Revelation passage you quoted to the question. So I'll just say what I think is the answer to the question.

I don't think that Constantine's support of the Church marks the separation of the true Church from "Rome/Orthodoxy" (or the universal church). I think the influence of Augustine marks that separation.
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Paidion
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"Not one soul will ever be redeemed from hell but by being saved from his sins, from the evil in him." --- George MacDonald
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Truthseeker



Joined: 21 Nov 2006
Posts: 9

PostPosted: Sat Oct 27, 2007 5:54 am    Post subject: Reply with quote

Paidion-
I am not nearly as versed in church history as I would like to be so I had to dig to find out how far Augustine and Constantine were from being contemporaries. Constantine came first and brought an unholy mixture of paganism into it all. He was a "pope"-a vicar (for vicarious, in the place of) God Himself. I know Augustine brought in a real mess as well but I would appreciate your sharing a bit about why you feel Augustine marked the departure instead of Constantine. Neither of these fellows is a favorite of mine but Constantine sure had turned it all upside down before Augustine was even conceived.
Confused respectfully, Truthseeker
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